Help with history of service

Hi Guys,

I am researching a soldier and have a copy of his records. I am trying to work out which battalions he was part of in order to put together a history for his grandson.

If I understand the records it right (Please feel free to correct, transcribe); What I don't understand is what the references in the UNIT column mean exactly? Can somebody kindly let me know the full Battalion/Units/Regiment names please?



He went to North Africa on 11.3.43 - I get that he was transferred to the 1st Battalion of The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment on 20.6.43 and I think I know what happened to him from here.

 

Joined up in 1936 for a normal, Seven and half years with Beds and Herts, serving at Depot.

1937. Posted to 2nd Bn Beds and Herts

38. still with 2nd Bn appointed Drummer.

39. back to depot Beds and Herts.

41. posted to 5th Bn Beds and Herts

Then to No 3 Infantry training centre there he was posted to 30th Bn Beds and Herts.

Authorised by War Office unit movement order R/7147 etc.

12/2/42 Attached to 31st Bn Suffolk Reg.

25/2/43 Permanently Attached to 6th Bn North Hants.

2/3/43. Back to 2nd Bn Beds and Herts (as it was his original Bn) and ceased to be attached to 6th Bn N Hants.

11/3/43 Embarked for N Africa.

23/3/43. Disembarked and put on X list. Should have been X(IV) list. A list of reinforcements.

30/5/43. They had sorted out which regiments needed reinforcing, so was transferred to the 1st Loyal Reg.

 

Great, thanks for sorting out some of the jargon! It makes much more sense now. Unfortunately, after Africa he went to Italy (Anzio) and he was captured shortly afterwards; was a POW for rest of war. I managed to find the exact date/time (to within hours) of exactly when captured through the war diary entries.

 

Hi,

The ???? on the transcript dated 1.7.37 is "Ox & Bucks" (Light Infantry ).

Steve Y

PS

You can obtain his Red Cross Papers via the below link.

You should also consider looking for his Liberation Questionnaire at UK National Archives. Not searchable online - needs a personal visit. Some forum members offer a look up service.


Requests for information about people held during the Spanish Civil War or the Second World War

 

Thanks also - does the In Gd Det Room mean "In Guard Detention Room"?

 

This may be a big ask, but can you please show the relevant page of the War Diary entry? His Military History Sheet states that he spent
1 year & 170 Days ( i think) with the 1st Loyal's. Transferred 20.5.43./ P.O.W. (Germany) 28.8.44. This chap has been lucky to come out of the Anzio Beachhead.
Regards
Stu.

 

Hi Stu, or course I can post... When the 1st Loyals finished in North Africa they went on to Italy (Pantelleria., Anzio then Fiesole). Not sure if/why the records would show the change from Africa to Italy invasion.

Here is the original image and also the typed transcript (by me). Patrol Report from IO 60 (Serial 55): In particular this paragraph.
"civilians reported that they had seen a party of Germans taking away four British soldiers about 300X North of B Coy. A strong patrol was sent out to investigate and arty brought down in area 814724. The patrol could not find O.P. Party and was informed by the civilians in the place, that they had been taken away by the Germans. Partisans said the prisoners had been taken to a house at 801715 (Villa la Spedaletto). A civilian later informed us that this house was used by the Germans as a lying up area."

I don't have a map to compare the references as this wasn't part of the war diaries file for 1944, but I will hopefully find out where they were. Obviously Villa di Spedaletto is easily found.

-----------------
Img: P2620887.jpg
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fire at about 100 at some suspected movement in the grass about 20X to their front. No fire was returned and there is no reason to beleive that any enemy were there. Nothing further happened.

Serial 3.
NCO and section B Coy. ambush area bridge 807715
Out 2100 in first light
patrol made its way from B Coy. to the bridge and crawled the last thirty yards. A Schmeisser?? opened up on them from the bridge itself and the patrol leader saw about 8 enemy there. He pulled back about 50 yards down the railway where he continued to hear movement from the bridge. As he returned at first light he was again fired upon from the bridge and this time he returned fire with Brew and rifles - No casualties.

From I.O. 60
To Florence Garrison
Date Time of origin
28 1800
PATROL REPORTS
Serial 55
Unit D Coy. - 1 NCO & 1 Sniper & 2 Men
Type: Recce & O.P.
Object: To watch suspected enemy positions
Time out: 0900
The patrol left at 0900 to establish itself in a house somewhere near the bridge 807715 of which a recce had been made half an hour
----------------
Img P2620888.jpg
----------------
previously at about 1200hrs civilians reported that they had seen a party of Germans taking away four British soldiers about 300X North of B Coy. A strong patrol was sent out to investigate and arty brought down in area 814724. The patrol could not find O.P. Party and was informed by the civilians in the place, that they had been taken away by the Germans. Partisans said the prisoners had been taken to a house at 801715 (Villa la Spedaletto). A civilian later informed us that this house was used by the Germans as a lying up area.

Serial 56
1 NCO, 1 Sniper, 2 Men out 0900 in 1530
O.P. Area 820715
Nothing seen of the enemy. No Guns or mortars spotted.

From I.O. 60
To Florence Garrison
Date Time of origin
29 0730
PATROL REPORT NIGHT 28-29 AUG
66/ Serial 2
NCO & section Ambush patrol at 819712
Time out 2100 in 0530
0215 hrs heard firing. spandau LMG and light automatics, grenades and possibly light mortar from area 800X to their right front (about 827717). Two red Vercy lights went up in their area and almost immediately a spandau firing tracer opened up from the bridge about 825719. The bullets passing over the heads of the patrol. Other spandaus seemed to be firing from

 

Hi there thank for the info,
What are the Red Cross papers like!!?

There is no liberation questionnaire as we've checked. Unfortunately he was a very different person on release. Left His wife, became a recluse, didn't tell anyone why, locked out his family, died alone and wasn't found for 3 weeks.

 

Hi,

A couple of posts made on this topic cover what ICRC provide.

Steve Y

International Committee of the Red Cross WW2 POW Archives

 

Yes. It looks as if he was caught by Oxs and Bucks Light infantry or gave himself up to their guard house in Oxford. The next morning stood trial and forfeited 14 days pay by RW (Royal Warrant) as set out in Kings regulations. Would then be escorted back to his unit.

 

Only had chance to have a quick read, will a look later.Hope the maps above are of use. Top piece of work by the way.
Edit, will post map 1 later. Work calls
Regards

View attachment 190500

 

If you go on to www.echodelta.net you will be able tp plot these locations on Google earth.

Regards

Frank

 

Thanks for the MAP - very useful. I actually did find a map in the file after all.

Out of interest are these references in the reports (i.e. 801715) translate to X-80.1, Y-71.5 on the map you have posted, or is it just coincidence?

At the map reference they recorded, there is a main road called Via Bolognese which is the location of Villa Triste Florence; a building that was the headquarters of the Nazi command and the Fascist police in WWII until August 44. Many people were tortured and killed in that building. I expect this is where the POWs where taken.

They lost control of this building in September. My man was captured end of August, and he was sent on to Lager Lazaret XI-A in Germany for the rest of the war.

 

The 5th Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire Regiment sailed from Liverpool at the end of October 1941 as part of the ill-fated 18th Division and surrendered at Singapore on 15th February 1942 to the Japanese, but this chap was posted away from the battalion virtually on the eve of embarkation.

 

I'd like to say he was lucky, but no such luck... He went through Hell in Italy and ended up in Hell's Hell.

 

Hi,

May I ask if those maps are available online as I am now looking for the ones further South (Y Grid refs in the 30's up to this one) to try and trace exactly through the diaries his route.

Thanks
Steve

 

[The mapsQUOTE="steveinuk, post: 740030, member: 61608"]Thanks for the MAP - very useful. I actually did find a map in the file after all.

Out of interest are these references in the reports (i.e. 801715) translate to X-80.1, Y-71.5 on the map you have posted, or is it just coincidence?

At the map reference they recorded, there is a main road called Via Bolognese which is the location of Villa Triste Florence; a building that was the headquarters of the Nazi command and the Fascist police in WWII until August 44. Many people were tortured and killed in that building. I expect this is where the POWs where taken.

They lost control of this building in September. My man was captured end of August, and he was sent on to Lager Lazaret XI-A in Germany for the rest of the war.[/QUOTE]

Steve, i was wondering if you knew where they came from? You want be able to get them on line ( or you will be lucky if you do?)
The maps are from, HISTORY OF THE FIRST DIVISION, Florence to Monte Grande August 44- January 45. I've scanned the introduction for you. Not sure what else you know about the Division after Anzio? Ignore if you do.. I also attach the other map that i meant to post the other morning. You know have the first two maps of the Divisional History.Hope this is of some use?
PS.The colours as well.
Regards
Stu.

 

J G Anderson in the UK, British Prisoners of War, 1939-1945
Name: J G Anderson
Rank: Lance Corporal
Army Number: 5948407
Regiment: Loyal Regiment
POW Number: 137664
Camp Type: Stalag
Camp Number: XI-A
Camp Location: Altengrabow, Saxony-Anhalt
Record Office: Infantry Record Office, The Public Hall, Lune Street, Preston, Lancashire
Record Office Number: 18

I note he was also out in India as per the image:

Name: Joseph Glover Anderson
Birth Date: abt 1918
Age: 17
Port of Departure: Calcutta, India
Arrival Date: 16 Sep 1935
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Calcutta
Ship Name: Mulbera
Search Ship Database: Search for the Mulbera in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping line: British India Steam Navigation Company Ltd
Official Number: 146298


TD

edited to add:
Hmmmmm if the image above is correct i.e the right person, why is it not mentioned onhis service record?? - or have I missed something?? Yes I am missing something I think, our man enlisted in Norwich (Aug 1936), so I doubt he would be returning from India the year before he enlisted and to an address in Walthams Cross - I could very well be totally wrong here

 

Hi I haven't posted everything. There is a previous service record. He actually signed up originally at 14yrs old. He was discharged at own request when he returned from Calcutta (by payment) but then re signed up. I have done a lot of research in to this guy for my friend and have made a type of dossier for him.

 

So the Incoming passenger details from Calcutta are actually him?

TD