How do we know it was taken on that date Has the photo been coloured Frail gentleman the strands of time might have altered the story Your photo is titled Spitfire Ace We have seen this many times even with our own families whereby stories get skewed Just suggesting when investigating challenge the witness on the validity of information jog their memory. Assume the original info was possibly not correct Regards Clive
I am no RAF expert but it seems to me that 185 Squadron never used the code RE The code RE was only ever used for a British Squadron No 229 - (Oct 1939 – May 1941) and so the picture would have been taken between those dates (so in UK, North Africa or Malta) TD
My points in previous posts none of it stacks up The photo looks like a Hollywood dream sequence Info from our various experts stating the facts on an individual item Could be the chap was UK ground crew Spitfire returned to UK for refurb etc Chap noticed plane had his sisters monica on it Chap poses on plane as mate takes photo Over the years chaps memory sadly changes story and he becomes a Spitfire pilot Sorry to sound harsh but the wizards on here have picked each bit and it does not fit in the jigsaw
If No 185 Squadron was the squadron involved, from May 1942 while at Hal Far, the squadron converted to to the Spitfire VC from Hurricanes. From that date the squadron operated Spitfire variations to the end of the war, some variations on strength at the same time. At Campoformido, the squadron finished the war with the Spitfire 1X which was on strength from September 1944.the same variation also was on strength from June 1943 until July 1944. If the photograph is date correct, the Spitfire should be a 1X mark. If the 1942 roundal is taken into consideration, the aircraft associated with the roundal introduction would be a Spitfire VC which served from May 1942 to September 1944 on No 185 Squadron A Spitfire mark variation reference is required. What looks like a rear view mirror might give added information...off the cuff I think these were a mod first introduced during the Battle of Britain for obvious reasons.
If I read this correctly though 185 Squadron did not have the Code RE No. 185 Squadron RAF Squadron Codes ZM (Apr 1939 - Sep 1939) GL (Sep 1939 - Apr 1940, May 1942 - Aug 1945) Or am I reading something incorrectly TD I dont think as far as the photo goes you can have a 1942 roundel on an aircraft with a squadron code 'RE' it seems to me that these facts didnt appear at the same time - its only my assumption based on what I read here maybe my dementia is worse that I thought
Some Facts, 229 Squadron used the code RE in the period Oct 1939 – May 1941, code changed after that in HB Roundel is from 1942 and up. Spitfire of Hurricane ? Hard to identify from this picture 229 Squadron: Hurricane Mk IIC – March to May 1942 229 Squadron (reformed): Spitfire Mk. V – August to November 1942 The given information is from some years ago. The pilot (on th epicture) is called George, and Elsie was his sister. He said the photo was taken on the 8th of May 1945 at Campoformido in North Italy. George also said he was in 185 (Malta) Squadron but as far as I can see 185 did not use the letters "RE", though they were at Campoformido at the time the photo was taken 8th of May was Victory day, maybe some kind of Parade at Campoformido, all involved squadrons included ? Look at this link about an event in Campoformido This could explain the differences on the plane, RE in combination with the Roundel and the dates.....
Rear view mirrors.. abundant photographs of Spitfires, some with, others not ,with the latter probably taken before the aircraft had been handled over to the RAF and before the associated MU receiving the aircraft had fitted a rear view mirror. However looking again at the Spitfire photograph, it is a clipped wing job which suggests it could be a Spitfire 1X.Two No 601 Squadron fighter bomber aircraft of the same mark can be be seen with the same clipped wings taking of from Fano airfield in November 1944.These are officially identified as Spitfires Mark LF 1X, UF-G and UF-Q, the latter for some unknown reason has a silver livery. An important point is that the roundals although not coloured have the same configuration as shown in the Post #1 photograph. Squadron code RE relating to quoted squadrons. No 118 Squadron cannot be as it never served abroad No 229 Squadron can be discounted as it returned from Middle East operations to Hornchurch in late April 1944.
Hi This is a late reply as I only have just come across this whilst looking for photos of 185 spitfires in Italy. It is indeed 185 squadron . They changed their codes to RE. My mother's cousin was in 185 Sqn., F/S Yarranton, and he told me it was RE plus photos. Brian Bird also has photos up on his interview with RE on his spitfire plus Ken Hone who states it was RE for the record - both on Legasee. Looking in the ORBs for that time their are two names with initial G - F/S. G Nicholson and F/Lt. G L Garnham ? Georges ?
On 21st Aug 1945 the London Gazette published the award of the Distinguished Flying Cross to Flt Lt George Llewllyn GARNHAM (143240) RAFVR 185 Squadron. Page 4223 | Supplement 37233, 17 August 1945 | Lond... Travers
Asked a couple of chums who might have been able to help; no joy - one had looked at this some time ago, in the margins of: What mark of Spitfire? and will continue to watch out.
Had another look at this and offer an alternative line of enquiry, perhaps worthy of follow-up. "Elsie" looks more "Elsis", ergo "Elsi's", to me. I note that a Sqn Ldr Esli Gordon Lapp DFC seemingly flew with 185 and 411 Sqns: portrait courtesy of Search the Collection | Canadian War Museum and Gazetted DFC: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36863/supplement/5955/data.pdf At Still more pictures from Malta- Encore plus de photos de Malte offering more from Malta, together with a biography furnished by contributor Pierre Lagacé, where Esli is soon transposed into Elsi, a quite plausible nickname: Esli Gordon Lapp – DFC 185/411 Squadrons? LAPP, S/L Elsi Gordon (15507) – Distinguished Flying Cross – No.411 Squadron – Award effective 18 December 1944 as per London Gazette dated 29 December 1944 and AFRO 379/45 dated 2 March 1945. Born 5 January 1918 at Redcliffe, Alberta; home there or Medicine Hat(clerk); enlisted Charlottetown, 24 September 1940. Trained at No.2 ITS (graduated 24 January 1941), No.16 EFTS (graduated 29 March 1941) and No.11 SFTS (graduated 25 June 1941). Commissioned 21 May 1942; promoted to Flying Officer, 21 November 1942; promoted to Flight Lieutenant, 21 May 1944; promoted to Squadron Leader, 10 October 1944. At “Y” Depot, Halifax, 5 July to 3 August 1941 before posting overseas; with No.59 OTU, 8 September to 9 December 1941; with No.411 Squadron, 9 December 1941 to 10 October 1942; with No.185 Squadron, Malta, 15 October 1942 to 29 May 1943; posted to Britain and Station West Kirby. Non-operational tour with Air Fighting Development Unit, Wittering, 15 June 1943 to January 1944. Sent on leave in Canada, 19 January to 24 March 1944; with No.411 Squadron, 14 April to 23 December 1944; returned to Canada, 1 February 1945; released 24 April 1945. Served in postwar RCAF Auxiliary, 15 April 1948 to 25 September 1950 with the rank of Flight Lieutenant. Credited with the following victories during this tour (Chris Shores, Aces High, 2nd edition gives claims and serial numbers): 2 July 1944, one FW.190 destroyed (NH196); 12 August 1944, one Bf.109 destroyed (NH174); 27 September 1944, two FW.190s destroyed plus one Me.410 destroyed (the latter shared with F/O R.M. Cook, all on NH174); 28 September 1944, one Bf.109 damaged (NH174); 3 December 1944, one Bf.109 destroyed (TA839, shared with F/L E.T. Gardner). Repatriated to Canada and released on 24 April 1945; in RCAF Reserve, April 1948 to September 1950. Qualified as a doctor in 1952 and practiced until 1982. A portrait of him, painted by Robert Hyndman, is in the collection of the Canadian War Museum (catalogue number 11549). In all his work as an operational pilot, Squadron Leader Lapp has been outstanding as a fighter pilot and section leader. Since the invasion of the continent he has attacked the enemy in the air and on the ground with unfailing courage and determination and frequently in the face of heavy opposition. During this period he has destroyed two enemy aircraft and damaged others. He has also destroyed or damaged a large number of tanks and other transport vehicles. Esli Lapp died on 23 November 2013, aged 95. So perhaps the aircraft nomenclature was a personal or groundcrew whim/pun of 'Elsis' .... with perhaps the eponymous flyer himself sitting on the wing, or a chum called George? More at: Gordon Lapp and ..... MALTESE FALCONS — The Canadian Aces at Malta — Vintage Wings of Canada including mentions of quite a few George/Georges. Afternote: Georges Nadon? Georges Nadon – Spitfire pilot, flew 277 sorties ....... and posing with a repaired BP961 ...... that would be quirky? Nadon didn't arrive at 185 Sqn until after Christmas Eve 1943 and that aircraft had seemingly been damaged when hitting an obstruction on landing Takali 24 March 1943, when Esli Lapp had still been there. Too much to imagine that it had been put in the cannibalisation/salvage area until a decision was made to fix that which had become known locally as "Elsi's spitfire" - destined for Nadon? Otherwise, why else might Nadon have posed with the wrecked airframe? But that would still be at odds with "8th of May 1945 at Campoformido" etc.
