Handwritten Codes on Casualty List Records - Solved

Found it:
Handwritten Codes on Casualty Records | WW2Talk

 

Threads now merged.


I'm wondering if the handwritten numbers refer to lists published in The Times, etc. See attachment in first post.

• TNA WO 417 - War Office: Army Casualty Lists, 1939-45 War

These public lists were also numbered but I don't know if they were given the same reference as the WO lists. I can't access Times archives now to check.


Years ago I read the file WO 162/199

• General procedure for dealing with Casualties in War, 1939

and I vaguely recall some instruction about breaking up, for example, a battalion's casualty list for one action into smaller groups. This was a kind of censorship and it might explain why different but almost consecutive numbers were written onto typed lists. From memory again, I think the lists in newspapers only denoted Regiment / Corps.

(Sorry that my memory isn't as good as Owen's. But mine's been getting worse over the years - so I could be completely wrong.)


If someone can find a list published in The Times or some other newspaper which quotes a number, they might then be able to find the corresponding (master) WO 417 Casualty list for the individuals - and then check the annotation.

Can anybody confirm or dismiss this theory?

 

Excellent Diane, perhaps we have the answer?

4105240 Fus M R Lloyd is mentioned in Casualty List No. 322 dated 1 Oct 1940:-


This appeared in a newspaper, confirming the existence of a second list:-


The newspaper was dated 3 Feb 41, sometime after the original list.

 

Another:

Casualty List No 218 dated 30 May 40:


Newspaper dated 9 July 40:


Note this refers to a list of 'officers and other ranks' whereas the official casualty list has separate lists for officers and O/Rs.

 

Brilliant Tony, you're a star! Thanks very much for checking, and so quickly too,

Looks likely, doesn't it, esp with 2 examples now!

Before posting I was trying to remember the early days of my IG casualty research - without reference to WO 417. I recalled wondering why casualties, who I knew were from the same day/action, appeared on different dates/lists in same publication, often many weeks after the fact.


So ... the handwritten notes correspond to separate lists prepared for publication which would combine Officer and OR lists. And the master lists were probably broken up, with any 'sub-unit designations' removed, for censorship purposes.

 

An example from 1944.

Casualty list No 1512 dated 31 July 44

Newspaper dated 10 Oct 44


Seems obvious now - why did it take us so long!!!!

 

We like mysteries and suspenseful reveals !

Ok then Tony, with that last example, I feel confident enough to edit the thread title

 

On reviewing the thread:

Oh dear, the answer was here all along, in Timuk's earlier posts

Handwritten Codes on Casualty List Records - Solved

and...
Handwritten Codes on Casualty List Records - Solved

 

well done

 

Well done, Tim, Diane and Tony.
Your next mission, should you decide to accept it: Draft Codes



http://ww2talk.com/index.php?resources/british-army-draft-serials.186/

 

hah!
This is as far as it goes for me.
draft recognition codes | WW2Talk
If anyone cares to compile a list...

 

This is my reckoning.
If you look at this post regarding the introduction of casualty lists you will note that "No casualty will be published until the next of kin has been informed."
Casualty List No. 1

In the past I have wondered how it was that soldiers were mentioned in casualty lists published within days of the incident, and how messages could have gone backwards and forwards and the NOK notified in such a short space of time.

It is my belief therefore that the casualty lists themselves (separate for officers and ORs) were compiled as soon as the information was made available, but for 'internal' military purposes only. Procedures were then put in place to trace and notify the next of kin and only after this had been completed were the names put on a second, combined list, and this was the one that was made public and sent to the press.

The reference number of this second list was then cross referenced back to the original to provide an audit trail.

Only taken 7 years to work that out, by which time the war was over!!

 

I'm sure you're right. See dbf's #3 in General procedure for dealing with Casualties in War, 1939

Officer's NOK to be notified by Casualty Branch.
OR's NOK to be notified by the Regiment's/Unit's Officer i/c Records.

(vi ) Officers i/c records will render daily a Record Office Casualty Return on Army Form W. 3016 to the War Office Casualty Section, detailing particulars of casualties dealt with during the day, the place and nature of the casualty, the nam and address of the next-of-kin and the date notified, etc. On days when no casualties are dealt with by officers i/c records, nil returns need not be sent to the War Office.

(Note:- The War Office Casualty Section will not issue to the press particulars of casualties until information is received from officers i/c records that the next-of-kin have been notified.).

Tim

 

Did you ever find out what this meant?

 

I knew it would turn up sometime. Here's the absolute proof.


Tim