Gnr J Scott 1820274: RA 7th Coastal Reg: FEPOW seeking info

Hi there
Looking for any information folks might have on my dad (now dead sadly). John Shaw Scott 1820274.
John joined up in Glasgow on 19/6/41 and became a gunner in the Royal Artillery.

I've went to kew a few years ago to see what I could find. Got to see his Liberation Certificate - very moving experience as it was shortly after he had died and is handwriting was very distinctive.

What I've got so far re locations and date are (apologies in advance for spelling below):
15/2/1942 Captured – Singapore
15/2/1942 Changi
16/4/1942 Adam Camp - Lt Col Madden
20/10/1942 Tarmakan - Lt Col Toosey
2/2/1943 Ban Pong - Cap G Fraser
2/2/1944 Nong Pladuck - Lt Col Toosey
8/8/1945 Singapore - Lt Col Gill
2/2/1946 Saigon - Lt Col Gill
13/5/1945? Dept Saigon

He worked on the bridge on the "Kwai" and was on the Burma railway most of his POW time. He had worked on the railways before joining up and I think that helped him being sent up the line for too long - he always said he has it easy compared to the "poor sods" up the line. He nearly died 2 times of Malaria and had attacks when I was a young boy.

Looking to get more info or how to get it if possible, heard mention on line regarding, pay books and service records and RA card files? Also anything on the 7th Coastal Reg history/battle records etc? Anything on these would be great.

I've started checking the liberation certificates of the COs list above and they seem to match my dad's record and dates.

Not sure how realistic the ask is for the data below (wish I'd asked my dad more/written down what he told me):

• He came out/went back by ship via the Cape. Is there any way to find out dates/ships or is that not possible?
• He always thought his best mate had escaped by ship in the last days before the fall of Singapore. Says it helped him stay alive looking forwards to meeting up when he got out. Back in the UK he found out his mate's ship had been sunk days out from port with the loss of all hands. Any sites/data sources on RA folks who embarked on ships in the last days? I don't know his mate's name unfortunately.
• My dad always said he was kept behind to give evidence against some Japanese soldiers (one an NCO), he led me to believe this was in Saigon? he seems to have stayed in the FE till June 46. He always said, with a glint in his eyes, it was hard for him to leave Saigon, he'd "befriended" the French daughter of a Frenchman businessman in Saigon who had survived the camps and spend his time there living above a brothel.

Any info/help etc would be great. Many thanks in advance.

Mac Scott

 

Mac,

Welcome aboard. Others here are experts in what happened to the unit @ Singapore and afterwards as Japanese POWs. They will help with specific POW issues.

Have a look at this short 2024 thread: 7th Coast/16th Defence Unit POW Singapore & Thailand

An online search with: "7th coast regiment" Site:ww2talk.com will point to the above thread, but click on 'more results' and a number of threads are id'd'. If you drop th a few more appear. Yes, there maybe duplicates.

Although you've been to Kew, The National Archives (TNA) have you applied for his Service Record?

Your Dad's record is held by TNA, but it is 'Closed' as their procedures require an official document recording his death (CWGC entry will do). Follow the link and TNA explain: Request Closed MOD Personnel Records If you no longer have his Death Cert. try: https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

His record is: Name: J Scott . Service number: 1820274 . Date of birth: 11 October 1921 . | The National Archives

 

Although you've been to Kew, The National Archives (TNA) have you applied for his Service Record?
MS: No not yet.

Your Dad's record is held by TNA, but it is 'Closed' as their procedures require an official document recording his death (CWGC entry will do). Follow the link and TNA explain: Request Closed MOD Personnel Records If you no longer have his Death Cert. try: https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

His record is: Name: J Scott . Service number: 1820274 . Date of birth: 11 October 1921 . | The National Archives[/QUOTE]
MS: Great stuff, pretty sure I still have his death certificate somewhere.

Many thanks David!
I'll post up what I find.

 

To your questions:

His unit deployed to Singapore in September 1938, I fear that will not feature in threads here. His record should show when he left the UK for Singapore, if it was during WW2 it is possible to identify the convoy, even the ship - the ship may be id'd in a regimental history book, if there is one.

See: 7 Heavy Regiment RA - The Royal Artillery 1939-45 and 7 Coast Regiment RA - The Royal Artillery 1939-45

The last hours of Singapore were chaotic and record keeping was low down the priority lists. There are threads here I've seen, but without a name it would be a forlorn hope.

War Crimes trials is not my focus, although I've looked the post-war time for the British Indian army in Saigon, part of French Indo-China. My recollection is that no such trials were held in Saigon - for complicated reasons. More likely any UK trials were held in Singapore.

See: French Permanent Military Tribunal in Saigon - Wikipedia and Singapore War Crimes Trials

Your timetable cited in part has. Is it in the correct order?:

8/8/1945 Singapore - Lt Col Gill
2/2/1946 Saigon - Lt Col Gill
13/5/1945? Dept Saigon

VJ-Day was 15/8/1945 and it took sometime for places like Saigon to be reached by Allied forces (Free French arrived after several months).

 

Mac,
Here is your Dad's Japanese Index Card



This is his entry on the RA Pilot Roll maintained by the somewhat clandestine BRE in Changi POW Camp.


OVL is Overland to work on the Thai-Burma Railway. 24/10/42 puts him in 'Y' Party (from the Adam Park Road Camp).

Departure

He returned to Singapore and was then transported OVS (Overseas) to Saigon on 2/2/45 on the Haruyasa Maru.

Japanese Transports Database

On liberation he will have been flown by Dakota to Rangoon for onward transportation to UK. (NB. You have misread his LQ the date for Saigon is 2/2/45 not 2/2/46. 2/2/45 is actually the date he left Singapore but your misreading of 45 for 46 has led to confusion).

More on the Death Railway can be found here:
Death Railway

You should contact the ever helpful Thai-Burma Railway Centre who are sure to have a data card on your father.
TBRC Online: THE THAILAND-BURMA RAILWAY CENTRE

Your question on ships outward and on repatriation may often be deduced from info on his Service Records.

Tim

 

Tim,

Many thanks for the new information, references and spotting the dating error. The data on 'Y' Party and the ship used Singapore to Saigon helps a lot! It would have taken me months to dig out that data.
I remember my dad talking about time spent working on steamroller on an airfield and I think this aligns with the time he was in Saigon.

I'm going to do more digging around the camp commander LQs, party Y and the Haruyasa Maru to try to cross reference with my dads records and my recollections of things he told me.

I'll post an update here when I've got some more data.

Cheers,
Mac

 

Thanks David.

Thanks to your posts I'm now going through the process of getting John's service record from Kew.

As you'll see from Tim's post I did have dates misread from my dad's LQ.

Doing some digging around Saigon and War crimes.

Mac

 

Just bear in mind that most POW service files have very little information about the man’s time as a POW.

It’s often just a couple of one line entries…...

“Missing In Action” then some time later “Confirmed POW” and finally “No Longer POW”.

Steve

 

Thanks Steve.

Makes sense.

Im interested in what happened before and after his time as a POW as well, trying to write a short life story of John and my mum to pass down to the kids.

Mac

 

Mac,

See: Saigon | COFEPOW
and an interview at https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80032118
in both cases I believe Friedstrummer is the former name of the Haruyasa Maru.

Tim

 

Service Record should give date of embarkation and you may be able to narrow the ship down using ConvoyWeb (bear in mind embarkation is not the date of sailing which may be a couple of days later).
they should also show date he was placed on the 'Y' List. This is the date of his arrival back in the UK. Use Arrival Port to identify possible ships. Arrival port will be Liverpool or Southampton.

Tim

 

Tim,
Still to listen to audio but the COFEPOW articles are very useful. My dad came from glasgow, probably joined up because of the clydebank blitz and my mums dad worked for john browns shipyard. If it turns out the transport ship to Saigon was built there I think my head will explode .

many, many thanks.

Mac
PS he was also on a troop train that got bombed and description of train attack on COFEPOW has a lot in common.

 

Mac,

Another audio for you https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80006656

Tim

 

Hi Tim

Been down a rabbit hole or two but been VERY productive.

1) Found out the convoy the Haruyasa was in was the Hi-88D.
Japanese Oilers

2) Found out the Haruyasa's former name was the Van Der Hagen
WARSHIPSRESEARCH: Dutch passenger-cargo ship Van der Hagen 1909-1942 (Haruyasa Maru 1942-1946, Van der Hagen 1946-1952)

3) Found out the convoy was attacked by USN Submarines USS Pampanito (still exists as a floating museum in San Franciso!!)
San Francisco Maritime National Park Association - USS Pampanito
and the USS Guavino.

4) Found the full was log of the Pampanito which details the attack on the convoy!!
SS-383_PAMPANITO.pdf

5) Found a summary of the ships log of one of the Japanese escorts that was protecting the convoy that confirms the submarines account!
Japanese Escorts

Has allowed me to plot the track of the convoy and the sub and how they met off the coast of Malaya in Feb 1945.




Using the American log I'm stretching my writing skills trying to set down a description of the whole affair. By pure luck the US subs managed to hit the only two transports in the convoy not carrying POWs.

Had a great time, thanks for pointing me off in all this.

Mac

 

Mac,

That's some great work.

Tim

 

Thanks.

I think there's enough data out there (Wikipediia and the sites I've listed) to map convoy numbers on to most of OVS departures from Singapore listed in COFEPOW site? I'll try to pass the data sources I've got on to them.

Just amazed that so much was available online. BTW the USS Pampanito was involved in the sinking and rescue of POWs from it in 1944. There's quite a lot of info (ships log and POW testimony) on the website link I sent.

I recommend reading some of the ships log - it's like a novel in bits

I've got the USN version and the IJN version I'm now listening to audio and searching round to try to find the POW version. There were 2,500 on the ship that made it to Ssigon so hopefully a couple of first hand stories out there. Fingers crossed.

Cheers

Mac

 

Here's another audio for you:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80032100

Tim

 

Might be worth if you find Australian POWs checking the transcribed records at the AWM. A search with 'Japanese prisoner of war' found just over x100 items: Transcription Items | Transcribe

There is an audio collection too: Advanced Search | Australian War Memorial

 

Clay Blair Papers - Archives West

Clay and Joan Blair wrote the classic account of POWs in French Indo China and beyond. it was a wonderful piece of research by a veteran of U.S. Submarines and his wife.

Return River Kwai by Blair Joan, Hardcover - AbeBooks

We had this thread re a train bombing

French Indochina Train bombing and killing of POWs 9 April 1945

I am very impressed with your charts.

John

P.S.

By the way, the Australian government sponsored digital archive "Trove" has a fair number of references to the bombing campaign in contemporary newspaper articles. For example:

" Army News (Darwin, NT : 1941 - 1946) Sat 28 Apr 1945
Page 1
Continued Success of China Sea Blockade

Continued Success of
China Sea Blockade
MANILA. Friday. - Allied air patrols
on blockade duty in the China Sea
yesterday and the previous night
wrecked 12 freighters. river boats and
patrol craft between Hong Kong and
south Indo-China.
Rolling stock and railway installations
along the French Indo-China coast were
also bombed and strafed.
The air assault on Formosa continued
yesterday when heavy bombers again
struck Matsuyama.,Tainan and Kama
aerodromes destroying buildings and
leaving fires burning in revetment areas.
Tainan and Hokko railway yards were
also hit with smoke from fires rising to
5000 feet.
Air patrols sank a lugger and an un-
identified vessel at night in Formosa
Strait and started large fires among fuel
stores in the Pescadores."

 

Many thanks for all this John.

I'm working on some more accurate charts (pampanito's log has position info on plane and ship sightings I haven't used yet).

Mac