German Tank Development.

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by von Poop, Jul 31, 2022.

  1. DogDodger

    DogDodger Active Member

    FWIW, there are two English-language books by Frieldi on the subject as well. Not sure how they compare with the German book, of course.
     

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  2. JeremyC

    JeremyC Well-Known Member

    I thought so - I remember watching the Combat Dealers restoration of the Panther that is now in the Armour Museum in Australia - think I remember that one having a problem with the final drive - but wasn't sure if that was the unit that DJ is talking about.
     
  3. Orwell1984

    Orwell1984 Senior Member

    Currently pending a reprint once the paper shortage gets sorted out.
     
  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    They're very very good.
    Bloody stupid prices of late so Orwell's news is welcome.
    Or... Maybe I should sell mine while prices are still idiotic.
     
  5. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    A few years ago I was loaned the detailed report of the restoration of Tiger 131 by the Bovington workshop. It was highly technical (not my thing) but I recall the report stating that while most of the original workmanship was generally of a very high quality, the hull’s welding was appalling. The author of the report considered that the welding was either done by very inexperienced workers or perhaps even by slave labour.
     
  6. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    He's using some pictures my grandfather took, a very nice chap.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  7. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    At this point, a few grossly simplified omissions about the origins of German tank development in WWII. Analogous to the British tank development thread, perhaps interesting synergy effects could emerge
    (The interested reader will find much more precise and in-depth information in the relevant specialist literature. )

    Its roots are inextricably linked to the Kama tank school near Kazan in Russia (aka Soviet Union)
    The "Leichttraktor/light tractor" and the "Großtraktor/large tractor" were tested there. The knowledge gained there then formed the basis for all further developments.

    The multi-turreted large tractor was a typical child of its time, such curiosities can be found in almost all armies of that time. Just 6 of them were manufactured, their prototype status being expressed, among other things, by the fact that they were made of mild steel.
    Apart from a short intermezzo in Norway, the surviving specimens served as gate guards. Negligible in this respect
    GT.jpg


    Much more interesting was the light tractor:
    (By the way, the attentive observer will certainly notice a design feature that can be found similarly in the British Mathilda: The distinctive side skirts.)
    LT.jpg

    It had its constructive origins in the LK II of 1918/19 (which not only coincidentally bore a close resemblance to the British Whippet).
    LK II.jpg

    With this test platform, essential know-how was acquired, which was particularly noticeable in two features:

    The vehicle had a rear-wheel drive, which led to frequent dropping of the tracks in soft terrain. Because similar experiences were made with the Großtraktor, all subsequent German tanks were given front-wheel drive.

    Initially, the vehicle had a 3-man crew. But very soon it turned out that a 4-man crew was much better suited.

    The main weapon was a 3.7cm Kwk. For the time, this was a more than adequate gun. And here also economic standardization efforts played a role: The 3.7-cm PaK was THE anti-tank gun of the army.

    The Pz I and II did not yet fully reflect these findings. However, they were important for establishing the manufacturing logistics chain of the industry and for familiarizing the first crews with this type of weapon.

    After the German industry was halfway established, the Panzer III was finally introduced to the troops, combining all the experience gained since the 1920s.
    Here we find as essential characteristics: welded superstructure, Box-shaped structure of the hull, 3-man turret and front-wheel drive

    As described at the beginning, this is a rough summary. Additions and corrections are always welcome
    As soon as I find time and leisure, I´ll write a short summary of the early operational concept of the Panzerwaffe.
     
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  8. JeremyC

    JeremyC Well-Known Member

    Can you give examples of "the relevant specialist literature" please? I'm particularly interested in how German AFV design teams made the leap from the Grosstraktor models to the PZ III and Pz IV.
     
  9. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Years ago I gave up my (German) background literature in favor of those on the "Kaiserliche Schutztruppe für Deutsch-Ostafrika" and am no longer up to date
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2022
  10. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    The Grosstraktor was a dead end.
    The Mk I and Mk II were the neccessary intermediate steps that led from Leichttraktor to the Mk III.
    I am quite sure that a certain "Adaministrator" has some helpful references to English-language literature on this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2022
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  11. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Completely agree on Gross. The German Independent.
    Leichte; also, yeah. Interesting step in the rightish direction.
    Never really thought about it, but there's a hint of the Vickers Medium without the slightly dangerous slip into Matilda 1/Tankettes there. Isn't there?

    I still think Spielberger is the man to best start with on these German 'Intermediate' types.
    His books may be old, occasionally sketchy, sometimes badly translated (F you! Pz I&2 volumes! Somebody needs to sort that the F out), and often a tad soporific among pages & pages of sprockets... but... I've yet to find anyone else who refers to their interwar/sportish path in the same way. Trouble is, you have to buy everything he wrote in order to gather those scattered anecdotes & passing comments.

    Hmmm... The German David Fletcher?
    To an extent. Not quite excelling so much in anecdotage & sheer readability, but some superb digressions in almost every book.
     
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  12. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Spielberger is a very good introduction to the subject, the man has put a lot of heart and soul into his books - I also had him on my shelf. Of course I can't say anything about the quality of the translations

    I can't answer that because I don't have enough detailled background knowledge.
    But at that time, everything was new technical territory and the engineers certainly have looked at each other to see what was being rigged together.
    In aircraft construction there were also conceptually quite similar approaches, prime example elliptical wing principle Heinkel / Spitfire (And NO, nothing was copied, only bloody amateurs believe that).
     
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  13. JeremyC

    JeremyC Well-Known Member

    Have you seen how many books the man's written? This one looks good, though . . . I've bust my book-buying budget for this month, but next month will soon be here . . .
     

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  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    His best that I've got are Stug (Remarkable. Ahead of its then time. Dripping with granular detail on wider German developments & rams home what they were for.), Pz.35 & 38 (Vast brick of a thing. His most 'modern' book really. Seems like he'd been encouraged to really go for it and pour in every detail, Seen absolutely nothing even close on the Czech side of town.) PzIV a very good grounding & the Tiger & Panther ones aren't half bad. (Probably a bit old hat now, but still solid & interesting. The Tiger one made me buy many more of his. Panther just seems to be something he really grasps, or even enjoys.),
    Maybe avoid Pz. I&II, and he can be prone to remarkably dull pages on sprockets. Not a bad thing, per se, but I just kept falling asleep (literally) through one such section.

    Hadn't noticed that Interwar one. Hmmm.
    Checking to see if it's been translated.
     
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  15. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Here you go, as threatened:

    When it comes to the rebirth of the German tank forces, most people think of Heinz Guderian as the "father" of the success, which should really be attributed to Oswald Lutz. He was an ardent advocate of tank development and had been appointed in 1920 to lead the Kraftfahrtruppen, an army division that Guderian also joined in 1922. Here, Walther K. Nehring must be mentioned as the third in the alliance
    These men formed the cadre that grew out of the Inspektion der Kraftfahrtruppen (In 6) into the the German Panzerwaffe:
    A development that began with manually pushed dummy tanks made of cardboard on bicycle tires and culminated nearly 2 decades later with batallions of 62-t Königstiger Behemoths.

    From a military-technical point of view certainly a quite remarkable achievement, had it not served to spread a corrupted ideology of terror and annihilation - A circumstance often neglected in German military historiography.

    The operational thinking of the Prussian-German general staff was fundamentally dominated by the concepts of "Cannae" and "annihilation battle".
    And it was precisely this thinking that naturally influenced certain factors of the Panzerwaffe, which as an independent force was to enable wide operational advances deep behind enemy fronts
    In all initial planning and design, it must be borne in mind that tanks and their operational use were de facto developed from scratch.
    In keeping with the thinking of the time, no war in the strategic dimensions of 1943/44 was planned, but rather short, energetic campaigns according to Moltke's diction, which were measured in distances to Warsaw and Paris (which perhaps provides an explanation for why the service life of the engines was rather short).


    After the experiences of the last war, most rearmament was based on the idea of "qualitative superiority". It was assumed that if it was possible for German technology and science to be a ahead of the enemy, one could thus win in a war of mass production possibilities as long as there was a qualitative advantage in numerous individual weapons. *

    • * Here it was actually Guderian who pushed through a decisive technical innovation: all vehicles were equipped with radio.
      This initially caused some resistance and quarrels, partly due to the conservative thinking of the decision-makers, but it also put a heavy strain on the then still tight budget.
      But it was the excellent command and control capabilities through radio in combination with the great operational mobility of the tanks that enabled the German advances in the early days

     
  16. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Specific circumstances in this context led constructively to the sequence "firepower - mobility – armour"

    Personally, I was particularly struck by the amount of testing and development that went into the suspensions. For the Mk III alone, I can think of almost a dozen different systems: Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf B-D

    The most prominent figure here is Heinrich Kniepkamp, who played a decisive role in all developments from the Mk III to the „big cats“: German tanks have him to „thank“ for technical delicacies such as 10-speed manual transmissions and „torsion-suspended interlocking wheel suspension*
    *My desperate attempt to correctly translate "drehstabgefedertes Schachtellaufwerk" o_O

    The firepower factor was initially limited by the need to focus on existing army material. (2-cm Flak, 3.7-cm PaK, 7.5-cm leIG) Later, the Gröfaz increasingly asserted his preference for big guns (honi soit qui mal y pense).
    But that is a chapter in itself that I will spare myself at this point. It should be mentioned, however, that the hull and turret were usually developed separately by different companies and only later combined.

    Armor was initially the stepchild of German tank construction. This was not primarily due to a lack of steel, but to the fact that there had long been a shortage of sufficiently powerful engines (An issue that also had an impact on aircraft construction) and the preference for high mobility
    Here, it was the eastern front that forced constant improvements, but also necessitated compromises: Until the end, the engines were barely able to handle the increasingly extensive, but necessary armor


    Phew, that should be it up to here.
    I ask for your indulgence that much of this is written from memory because I no longer have the literature on hand.
    However, I hope to be able to contribute some a halfway useful keywords for further discussion

    Opinions and corrections as always welcome
     
  17. JeremyC

    JeremyC Well-Known Member

    Always wondered about "Schachtellaufwerk" . . .
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
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  18. Wg Cdr Luddite

    Wg Cdr Luddite Well-Known Member

    We should definitely have a thread for German compound nouns!
     
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  19. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

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  20. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Holla die Waldfee
    Now that's what I call extremely helpful!
    I have already read it over with pleasure and have taken the liberty of making a few minor corrections (I have only got as far as D so far, but it's not over yet).
     
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