german tank at arnhem identity

Discussion in 'General' started by allanh53, Apr 30, 2020.

  1. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    As mentioned by Idler above for an Arnhem diorama the 6 pounder should be the Airborne version which had split trails and less shielding (the extra separate bit of armour was removed and they seem to have had a straight top edge to the armour rather than the waves) - it may also have other differences but I haven't paid them that much attention - if you look at photos of the one at Heelsum it may help.
     
  2. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

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  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    A dreary slew of detail pictures, in case of any use - Fort Nelson's Airborne 6pdr:
    (Don't blame me. I was asked by a mate to take 'em.)


    ffff.jpg SSSSSS-(370).jpg SSSSSS-(372).jpg SSSSSS-(378).jpg SSSSSS-(379).jpg SSSSSS-(380).jpg SSSSSS-(381).jpg SSSSSS-(382).jpg SSSSSS-(383).jpg SSSSSS-(384).jpg SSSSSS-(385).jpg SSSSSS-(386).jpg SSSSSS-(387).jpg SSSSSS-(388).jpg SSSSSS-(389).jpg SSSSSS-(392).jpg SSSSSS-(393).jpg SSSSSS-(394).jpg SSSSSS-(398).jpg SSSSSS-(399).jpg
     
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  4. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Not even Duxford's got one of those!
     
  5. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Fort Nelson's a cracker, really.
    Well worth the visit if passing through. Brilliant building full of things I recognise from childhood 'bumper book of guns' stuff - and 'free'.
    I want to take their armoured test plates home with me...

    DSC03463.jpg DSC03467.jpg DSC03413.jpg DSC03409.jpg DSC03416.jpg DSC03423.jpg DSC03425.jpg DSC03426.jpg DSC03437.jpg DSC03440.jpg DSC03452.jpg DSC03466.jpg DSC03470.jpg DSC03476.jpg DSC03477.jpg DSC03482.jpg

    Sorry, I've digressed badly, though there is a crisper picture of the 6pdr there that shows the trail & joints. :unsure:
    Back to Arnhem equipment.
     
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  6. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    What is this one?

    upload_2020-5-1_13-57-48.png
     
  7. allanh53

    allanh53 1st Airlanding anti-tank battery royal artillery

  8. allanh53

    allanh53 1st Airlanding anti-tank battery royal artillery

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  9. Vintage Wargaming

    Vintage Wargaming Well-Known Member

  10. idler

    idler GeneralList

  11. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

  12. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    I don't know what it is but liked it when I saw it in Von Poop's post above it. It does look like the Type 31 in this wiki post. I think you IDd it. Thanks.

    Type 31 75 mm mountain gun - Wikipedia
     
  13. allanh53

    allanh53 1st Airlanding anti-tank battery royal artillery

  14. idler

    idler GeneralList

    That's odd. Here's the pdf:
     

    Attached Files:

  15. allanh53

    allanh53 1st Airlanding anti-tank battery royal artillery

    c
    cheers idler just what i wanted
     
  16. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    The topic jogged my memory of the attached photograph in one of my late father's albums of a knocked out Mk IV, which he annotated as being in Arnhem. The photo is something of a mystery. I believe the location is indeed Arnhem and that the photograph was taken in the industrial area to the east of the road bridge. Stolpi will confirm this I'm sure. My father commanded 7 Platoon, C Company, 2 Para and he was captured in the area of the museum on Utrechtseweg, so the photograph was certainly not taken by him at the time of the battle. Also, I am not aware of any fighting in the industrial area at the time of the Sep 44 battle. It could be that it was a tank knocked out during Arnhem's final capture in April 45, and as I seem to remember that my father returned to Arnhem soon after the war, it could be that he took the photograph on that occasion.

    Other points of note: it looks as if there is a gasometer in the back left of the photo; the penetration that knocked out the Mk IV is clearly visible low down on the front (appliqué ?) armour; the tank still has its hull machine-gun in place so preliminary battlefield clearance has yet to take place; and side skirts are visible on the tank's left side. Thoughts?!

    John
     

    Attached Files:

    • MkIV.jpg
      MkIV.jpg
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  17. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Yup, hard east of the bridge at Arnhem and knocked out during the September 1944 fighting (airborne battle). The location is Westervoortsedijk near the Camiz milk processing plant (that's the industrial building you see on the picture).

    Camiz.jpg

    The Pz IV tank belonged to Kampfgruppe Knaust (more specifically the Panzer Coy Mielke) an was KO'd by a 6-pounder AT gun during an attack on the airborne positions at the northern end of the bridge. Quote from Bob Gerritsen's book "Retake Arnhem": "The 6-pounder of Sergeant Cyril Robson [..] opened fire at a range of 200 meters and scored three direct hits through the front armor". While in hurry I could not find a date for this action but it must have been around 19/20 September 44 (?) (Edit: first probing attack by Knaust in the afternoon of 18 September)

    JDKR - Your photo was taken in 1945 after Arnhem had been taken by the Allies.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
  18. idler

    idler GeneralList

    But didn't the one under the 'bridge' end up with the bridge on top of it? I'm struggling to tally up the buildings with what I've got to hand - Market-Garden Then and Now is quarantined with my dad.
     
  19. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    Original RAF photo taken in 1945 with pontoon bridge next to the blown up bridge from my collection. I have 20 photos from a recon from Arnhem to a DZ taken in 45
    Keith
    Arnhem 1945 photo 2.jpg Arnhem 1945 photo 1.jpg Arnhem 1945 photo 3.jpg
     
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  20. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    Idler - Yes you are right, this is the same tank as the one with what you call 'the bridge' on top of it. 'The bridge' is a structure (pipe line?) between two buildings from the Camiz milk processing plant running high across the Westervoortsedijk. This structure collapsed at some point during the battle and landed on top of the tank. If you look at the aerial, I posted above, the stucture is right at the end of the arrow line which points at the location of the Pz IV. You even see the shadow of it projected on the Westervoortsedijk.

    By the time the other picture of the Pz IV (previous post) was taken the debris already had been removed.

    Pz IV Westervoortsedijk.jpg

    The pipe bridge before the war:

    Pz IV Camiz 3.jpg
    Photo courtesy: Arnhem
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
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