German army-why so skilled?

Was'nt it Alexander that said no other soldier in the world could have taken the beating the 1st para div.took at the second battle of cassino and keep on resisting.And did'nt he also call them the finest infantry in military history?[I could be wrong about the particular phase of the battle he refered to but am currently driving a truck and don't have access to my reference library].

 

Barkhorn -
Well Alexander didn't use those exact words but you got the sense right as he did - in a letter to Alan Brooke - The CIGS - state that "at Cassino we were fighting the finest troops in the world"...he also had some very good ones himself !

Alex got that right as they never did quit as they held that to die for the Fuehrer was a great honour....at the same time - Kesselring didn''t hold that view of them as he instructed LT.Gen. Senger von Etterlin - their Corps commander to withold many decorations for them as they were too cocky.

Thing is many people get carried away with these kind of statements but the fact is while they were very good as Infantry and caused us a great deal of trouble at Catania - Ortona - Sangro - Cassino - Gothic Line -they were after all defending - we did beat the wotsit out of them every time we met them - like the man says " tell me again son - who won the friggin war" !

The Canadians had a great deal of trouble with them at many of the locations mentioned but they prevailed and left Italy to fight in Belgium - Holland and Germany before going home..leaving 6000 D Day Dodgers in Italy for ever ....they knew the 1st paras very well and their 4th bde !
Cheers

 

For a good overview of the German armies abilityh to adapt against unfavourable situations read "It never Snows in September" by Ian Kershaw. It shows how the defenders were able to organise themselves into battlegroups and act coherently to respond to the threat at hand.

The Germans had a fantastic ability to have random units from different formations work together to achieve a common objective, the Kampgruppe. It was a skill that was utilised time and again to good use.

 

Gotthard -
Exactly - The Kampgruppe was an excellent formation... and this goes back to their initial training which was far superior to anything we had and they were able to function without leaders in difficult situations - notwithstanding all that we did beat the wotsit out of them every time we met, not bad for a bunch of civvies......read about the Kiwi's and 4th Indians and the 78th Div...or ask Niccar......after he finishes off his Glenfiddich...or Ron Goldstein !

A classic case of endurance and adapatability without leadership try the Guards at Cassino 2 and 3 - "and tell me again son....."
cheers

 

I realize there is a effort to debunk the "myth"of german superiority but it is hard to ignore the numbers.During ww2 the german's inflicted 3 times as many casualties as they received,I know they were fighting defensivly but this was mainly during the second half of the war.The other half they were on the offensive.
Between just the T-34 and the M-4 your talking over 70.000 tanks.And you have to realize they NEEDED to build that many,considering the numbers lost during the course of the war.
It's easy to say the winner had the superior soldiers but historically this was not the case.The confederacy was defeated by numerically superior forces not more qualified forces.As Longstreet once lamented"Whenever we achieved a victory we could not exploit it for lack of reserves to exploit it"which is true all their forces usually being in the front lines.
Take the Zulu war's,I believe if the Zulu's had been armed equally to the british the british would have been in trouble.
I am not a nazi sympathizer and my opinion may not be politically correct but sometimes one must give the devil his due.

 

This thread continues to be very interesting, with some good balanced points. Keep 'em coming!

 

Barkhorn -
No one is de bunking the fact that the German's - mostly - were very good at what they were doing both for the first half of WW2 and the second half when they were defending.

As has been pointed out long before now - figures can be misconstrued a little - e.g friend of mine was a feldwebel in the German Infantry in Russia he often told the tale of how he would set his machine guns against hordes of Russians until he ran out of ammo - but they still kept coming - so probably he killed 1000 Russians to maybe 10 of his men - same at Cassino - the 1st paras maybe killed 1000 Kiwis' -Sikhs et al - so the figures look good....

We are all aware of the discrepancy of British and American tanks vis a vis the German Tanks - there is no question that they knocked out more British Tanks than we did German tanks....but... you know it's very difficult to try and knock out a Panther or Tiger at 500 yards with a 6 pndr or even a 75mm when he has nailed you from at least a mile away - the 17 pounder was not available on Tanks until June '44
and the 3.7 AA gun was not available to knock out his tanks until the Battle of the Bulge - January '45 - sure hope you never have to try that stunt of wondering why an express train has just missed your head !

Your Zulu war comment is pertinent - had the Zulus had rifles etc - the British would have been in deep trouble - but I tend to think of Rorke's Drift when 4000 Zulu's attacked maybe 150 British soldiers - that should have been a "no contest" but it wasn't - now think in terms of Cassino - when a German X!V Corps of 1st Paras and two German Infantry Divisions held two Divisions of Kiwi and 4th Indian's - that also was a "no contest" - or should have been !

OR take look at the photo's of Monte Camino - Cassino was even worse !

Facts are still facts - they were excellent soldiers - and we were lucky !
Cheers

 

Being one that fought in the Sicilian campaign in the 78th division and being apposed by the Herman Goering division and other so called crack troops it comes as a surprise to hear that it was considered a tribute to the efficiency of the German army
that they managed to get most of their troops and equipment back into Italy. Even armchair historians know that that campaign only lasted about a month and when he did get his troops across the straits of Messina they retreated so fast we had a job trying to contact him and never saw him again till we got to Bari on the Adriatic coast and even then we came upon the 1st Paras and we gave them a bloody nose which I must admit was reciprocated when we met again at Cassino but what a defensive position he had. I would just like to add this is the first time I have ever said anything about what I did during the war to anyone that includes my own familyexcept for the humour barrack room and bawdy but without it you could have gone insane ask Ron Tom and Sapper

regards niccar ( I nearly went out and bought another bottle of Glenfiddich)

 

Just for information sake the germans produced 6.042 panthers and roughly 1.900 tigers[1.500 tiger 1's and 400 tiger 2s]the pz IV and the stug IIIs represented the bulk of german armor confronted during the later half of the war.Seems that allied troops were being attacked by "tigers"quite a bit from what i have read.Although in defense I will say that the silhoette of a pz IV would resemble a tiger's in the heat of battle[pardon my spelling]
I read somwhere that the biggest fear of tankers in the latter stage of the war was not enemy armor but the individual german soldier with a panzerfaust.I don't remember his name but one german soldier knocked out 21 tank's using hand held weapons,panzerfaust,anti-tank mines etc.talk about intestinal fortitude!

 

Barkhorn -
You persist in getting things wrong don't you - even after Niccar's posting - strangely this is the first time I have read any comment of his on the war - we knew he was in the M/c gun support Battalion of the 78th Div..but he would never talk or write about it - next we will have Ron chipping to-morrow - then Sapper once more !

The biggest fear of any Allied Tank crew was to have a German Tank or SP gun, lining you up in his 88mm sights - then the panzer schriek or faust - it took guts - no question - and most Infantry felt they were being attacked by Tigers at all times as they all had machine guns and tended to squish infantry into the ground.

The tale of a German armed with a panzerfaust sounds a bit more like your figures of how they caused three times as many casualties as we did - but did you ever hear of "Smokey" Smith..... I don't suppose so...so if you will permit me....

"Smokey's" C.O. - a Vancouver real estate executive, chap called "Budge" Bell-Irving - knowing that my Tank Squadron could not operate in the swamplands of the swollen river near Cesena in Northern Italy - so he created small four man sections with PIATS and Thompson m/c guns and told them to go looking for Panthers - and kill them !

So "Smokey" and his sergeant and two other men did just that - and quickly were attacked by a troop of three Panthers, wounding the sergeant - "Smokey" immediately picked up the PIAT - and knocked out the first Panther and killed the ten men of the PG's who had jumped down to take care of "Smokey" - he then fired and hit the second Panther which backed into a ditch and the crew and their PG's took off - the third took off complete with their PG's still aboard - "Smokey" then carried his sergeant to the First Aid Post - next moring we were presented with the ditched Panther and we took great joy in firing their 19 foot long special 75mm at the makers

- "Smokey " - oh yes - he got the V.C and we felt this was quite right as it was raining very heavily at the time.

He just died a few years ago in Vancouver at aged 91 .. a great guy to have around - he was in "C" company of the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada in 2nd Bde of the 1st Cdn Division - the Cdns won three V.C's in Italy - that took guts !
Cheers

 

Not to sound disrespectfull but in same vein-how long did the british and french army defend northern france and belgium before evacuating at dunkirk WITHOUT their heavy weapon's and vehicles?And would this also be considered a tribute to the efficiency of the british army?Granted the lack of inter-service support contributed to the successfull german evac.
As for the sicilian campaign only lasting a month from what i've read that was four times longer than the allies predicted.
The german's also had no intention of defending Calabria so their retreat was planned,also i believe the 29th PzG div.was on hand to help in the defense of salerno because of this retreat.

 

My Grandfather was with 5 Div at Anzio and on the Garigliano. He spoke with respect for the accuracy of German mortar fire but I never had the slightest inkling talking to him that he didn't think he was going to be on the winning side. Not only that, he'd have taken any one or all of them on in the boxing ring (and knocked them down) I don't believe for one moment that British troops and their NCOs weren't tough, resourceful and adaptable. Just because most of us have gone soft nowadays doesn't mean they were.

...and Niccar, I'll raise a Caol Ila to you (I need increasingly peaty poisons these days)

Rich

 

Not to sound disrespectfull but in same vein-how long did the british and french army defend northern france and belgium before evacuating at dunkirk

The Germans knocked out a third-rate French unit at Sedan enabling them to sweep behind the BEF who had moved forward into Belgium.

I would be interested to learn of those occasions where the BEF gave way uninfluenced by events beyond their control.

Had the entire line been held as strongly as that between the Belgian and French armies, I cannot see why the advance would not have been held on the Dijl.

 

I do not believe that the stat of the infliction of a 3-1 ratio of casualties inflicted as received is incorrect this total includes ALL the allies and is a matter of record not my imagination look it up[Max Hasting's"armagedon]
Like i stated i'm not a german apologise I am just stating my opinion[the 3-1 ratio notwithstanding]based on the title of this thread.
If a discussion like this in which someone disagree's with another's opinion is considered continuing to get the facts wrong why have a forum?Let's remove the reply option and make this a soap box where statment's are made and leave it at that.
I love intolerance.

 

Arras.

 

I see no 'intolerance' here - it's just discussion. If you disagree, say why and argue your case. That's what a discussion forum is.

 

I'm afraid that I have to regard Arras in a positive light because it witnessed an attack led by the motorcycle combinations of 4th RNF and they captured Dainville to boot. At that stage in the campaign, there were such tensions between the allies and doubts about the others that a viable defence on such a broad front was no longer possible.

However, I have read and re-read accounts from eyewitness to recent publications and see nothing to suggest, in terms of local engagements, that this was a confrontation between bungling amateurs and supermen.

 

"Barkhorn -
You persist in getting things wrong don't you - even after Niccar's posting - strangely this is the first time I have read any comment of his on the war - we knew he was in the M/c gun support Battalion of the 78th Div..but he would never talk or write about it - next we will have Ron chipping to-morrow - then Sapper once more !

The biggest fear of any Allied Tank crew was to have a German Tank or SP gun, lining you up in his 88mm sights - then the panzer schriek or faust - it took guts - no question - and most Infantry felt they were being attacked by Tigers at all times as they all had machine guns and tended to squish infantry into the ground.

The tale of a German armed with a panzerfaust sounds a bit more like your figures of how they caused three times as many casualties as we did "

Does'nt sound like to much tolerence there,sound's like i'm being called an uninformative fool to me.
as for the statement that the german's retreated so fast the british had a problem keeping up flies in the face of HISTORICAL fact.Monty's pace was nonchalant to say the least[fact not my imagination when i get home tommorrow i will post any number of references to back this statement].
From i've read so far there needs to be a debunking of the myth of british superiority.
Where are the american vets of ww2 on this site seems we need a say

 

Here is the quote by Alexander verbatim
"
"No other troops in the world but German paratroops could have stood up to such an ordeal and then gone on fighting with such ferocity" — Field Marshal Alexander.
not my word's.

 

From i've read so far there needs to be a debunking of the myth of british superiority.

It's not a myth Old Boy.