Friendly fire

Discussion in 'General' started by RemeDesertRat, Mar 24, 2011.

  1. SuperMarioBros.

    SuperMarioBros. Discharged

    Friendly fire seems to have been accepted as an occupational hazard, up to a point. Tired, terrified and twitchy men are going to make mistakes sometimes.

    The air forces (note the plural) gave themselves a problem as they did tend to oversell their accuracy - particularly the well-known USAAF's 'bomb in a pickle barrel' claim. Even worse, they may have believed it themselves. I'm not suggesting that an umpteen hour bombing mission was stress-free, but I don't think the air forces' crews/pilots could excuse mistakes in the same way that infantry and tankers could excuse theirs, what with all those clean sheets, warm beer/WAAFs and bacon and eggs before and after the nasty bit.

    It's also inevitable that the closer the 'friendship' of the firer and the fired upon, the less noise will be made about it. Sentries shooting their colleagues, not many will hear about it (until they put it in a mini series, that is) and the circumstances are easier to accept. One service bombs or shoots down another, they may have harsh words. One ally blats another and it'll be all over the papers.

    Going back to the earlier point, to what extent is friendly fire a bigger news today because of the overhyped accuracy and infallibility of modern technology?

    The difference is that the media today was extremely anti-war, particularly the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. The media don't care about those people, they only want to splash headlines about "friendly fire" and anything else that goes wrong there just to make more money. In todays' modern war, if one or a couple soldiers got killed by friendly fire, yes you're correct it's all over the newspaper.

    Take Pat Tillman for example. In April 22 2004, American Ranger and former famous football player for the Arizona Cardinals, Pat Tillman, was accidentally shot and killed by American troops during combat operations in Afghanistan. The U.S. government covered it up and saying that he was killed by enemy fire. They even make money off him trying to portray him as a hero. When the news and investigations later leaked out that Tillman was killed by friendly fire, there was a huge outrage for it than the actual friendly fire incident.

    Just recently during a 2011 Libyan uprising, in 17 March 2011, A MiG-23BN aircraft flying for the Free Libyan Air Force was mistaken for Gaddafi's Libyan Air Force fighter by Rebel ground forces and was shot down over Benghazi, Libya. The pilot was killed as a result when he ejected too late.

    Accidents like these can happen in War and it happens to everyone especially during the heat of the battle.
     
  2. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Supermariobros
    "" Accidents like this can happen and it happens to everyone especially during the heat of battle""

    Now son - IF you really believe that quotation of yours- what the hell was that all about in your recent posts denigrating the RAF and the Royal Navy - if it happens in the heat of battle to everyone -

    you have already alluded to your own experience in the heat of Battle- so what's your beef all about...? Just to have a crack at the British ..? Sure reads like that...!

    The Royal Navy was NOT guilty of killing your troops at the exercise "Tiger" - put the blame where it really lies - on the shoulders of dis-obedient US troops.
    Cheers
    Cheers
     
  3. SuperMarioBros.

    SuperMarioBros. Discharged

    Supermariobros
    "" Accidents like this can happen and it happens to everyone especially during the heat of battle""

    Now son - IF you really believe that quotation of yours- what the hell was that all about in your recent posts denigrating the RAF and the Royal Navy - if it happens in the heat of battle to everyone -

    you have already alluded to your own experience in the heat of Battle- so what's your beef all about...? Just to have a crack at the British ..? Sure reads like that...!

    The Royal Navy was NOT guilty of killing your troops at the exercise "Tiger" - put the blame where it really lies - on the shoulders of dis-obedient US troops.
    Cheers
    Cheers

    When did i say something to degenerate British troops? i'm not trying to have an internet argument with you or degenerating anybody and I never said who's guilty or not did you read my post? I said whoever fault of it, it's a matter of opinion, you have a right but fact remains the fire still came from a British HMS Hawkins that killed 308 troops. I don't condone the acts of British or anything. I honor their bravery even every coalition troops that are out there in Afghanistan. and you insulted back by calling Americans dis-obedient which in my opinion disrespectful. Otherwise let's not argue about it and point fingers before things can turn really ugly.
     
  4. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Supermariobros -
    You amaze me and I do not believe that you fully understand the word denigrate - which is what you did - I did not insult the US troops - I merely pointed out that owing to their disobedience at Tiger - they were killed - that was in no way an insult merely a statement of actual fact - in the same way as the US General Mark Clark - disobeyed HIS orders from his superior at the breakout of Anzio.
    - that was in Italy in WW2 around the end of May 1944 - but I am sure you are aware of all that .- THAT was a fact !

    As regards getting ugly - you are a newcomer to this forum and perhaps you should reflect on that before you write another word on any subject. As you don't scare me ....
    Cheers
     
  5. SuperMarioBros.

    SuperMarioBros. Discharged

    Supermariobros -
    You amaze me and I do not believe that you fully understand the word denigrate - which is what you did - I did not insult the US troops - I merely pointed out that owing to their disobedience at Tiger - they were killed - that was in no way an insult merely a statement of actual fact - in the same way as the US General Mark Clark - disobeyed HIS orders from his superior at the breakout of Anzio.
    - that was in Italy in WW2 around the end of May 1944 - but I am sure you are aware of all that .- THAT was a fact !

    As regards getting ugly - you are a newcomer to this forum and perhaps you should reflect on that before you write another word on any subject. As you don't scare me ....
    Cheers

    Denigrate means to treat or represent as lacking in value or importance. As for your 2nd question, i had to created a new account because i cannot access to my old account for some reason(probably hackers i believe). I still need a lot of learn to argue despite that. But anyways i'm not here to argue or anything, i do agree with you it was US soldiers fault for not listening to their superior to cross the white mark and usually i thought you take it the US army as a whole as idiots. Individuals are and yes they are idiots for crossing into a line of fire disobeying their superiors. But no time for pointing fingers right now since WW2 at that time was terrible war mostly famous for lots of friendly fire incidents.

    It would be better if nationalism was thrown out and people should judged by the individuals as a whole the world would have been better. But with nationality, people are quick to be defensive about it. That is still happening today.
     
  6. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    SuperMarioBros
    I really don't think that you need to tell Tom how terrible the war was or about friendly fire as he has experienced it ... and, as he's explained, even from the RAF.

    Friendly fire will happen no matter how hard you try to guard against it.

    My father encountered straffing by US planes, he witnessed quite a few getting killed. His company suffered from their own artillery firing short. He saw good mates get killed as a result. He told me about various stupid accidents that could have been prevented, but, he saw many more killed by the enemy.

    I've tried hard to understand exactly what point you were trying to make; I don't believe anyone here has denied that such incidents happened, and were caused by, and inflicted upon, all participants.

    Sadly, I think there's a failure to communicate somewhere along here.
     
  7. SuperMarioBros.

    SuperMarioBros. Discharged

    SuperMarioBros
    I really don't think that you need to tell Tom how terrible the war was or about friendly fire as he has experienced it ... and, as he's explained, even from the RAF.

    Friendly fire will happen no matter how hard you try to guard against it.

    My father encountered straffing by US planes, he witnessed quite a few getting killed. His company suffered from their own artillery firing short. He saw good mates get killed as a result. He told me about various stupid accidents that could have been prevented, but, he saw many more killed by the enemy.

    I've tried hard to understand exactly what point you were trying to make; I don't believe anyone here has denied that such incidents happened, and were caused by, and inflicted upon, all participants.

    Sadly, I think there's a failure to communicate somewhere along here.

    I'm not guarding friendly fire and i would never do that. I do know it happened and it sucks regardless who to blame. My point is that WW2 has a lot of friendly fire incidents because of no IFF, radar on aircraft, no guided weapons, laser designation. Now with improved technology, the current wars we have now has been the lowest blue-on-blue incidents even since. That's what i'm trying to make.
     
  8. Cobber

    Cobber Senior Member

    [/QUOTE]I remember one incident in Vietnam, where an inexperienced Australian officer gave the wrong coordinates to a New Zealand battery and the rounds instead landed on them and his Aussies soldiers, killing two and wounded several others[/QUOTE]

    'Can you please provide a source for this.'

    If you cannot provide sources with posts then you really should not post the information on this site, as this site is a serious site for WW2 enthusiasts with many members who are well known through Britian and other areas as serious and very often published WW2 historians

    Also Wiki really is not that acceptable as the only source as virtually anyone can write whatever they want on that site, so it's best to seek and show other sources no matter how small to back up your wiki source.
    So in some cases it is best on "This Site" to provide two sources.

    I am not saying the above did not happen however when you quote something like that you must show your sources.
    Other wise it would be like me just blurting out that in Korea and Viet Nam that the Aussies and all Allies were often Napalmed rocketed Machine gunned and bombed by USAAF, USN and USMC air craft. and for me to then not provide any sources even though we all know it to be true.
     
  9. SuperMarioBros.

    SuperMarioBros. Discharged

  10. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    Apologies in advance, but anecdotal accounts taken by themselves are of little value. I would no doubt suspect that were you to talk to any combat soldier in any war, you will find incidences of friendly fire by their own forces and forces from their allies.

    In my discussions with Old Hickory, he has mentioned several instances of being strafed and/or bombed by the USAAF and RAF. To him it was interesting that one of the times he was strafed by the RAF, he was not in a 21st AG area, so he was not sure why the aircraft were even there.
     
  11. Cobber

    Cobber Senior Member

    Well i found this link here. Operation Marauder: Allied Offensive in the Mekong Delta » HistoryNet. They are some friendly fire incidents from this link i found. They are also some books provided as well.


    Which post is this a source for?
    Is it meant to be proof of something you had written previously or is it to show in general that friendly fire happened in Viet Nam.

    This is a WW2 site.

    Secondly the photo in the link provided by you is so out of place it shows two 7RAR soldiers who were in Viet Nam between April 1967 to March 1968, so these two men were not in country when Operation Marauder was undertaken. This makes me very wary of any other information in that article, as they have placed wrong photos with captions saying they were 7RAR when the only Army Combatants in Viet Nam were 1RAR, the Prince of Wales Light Horse and 105 Arty Bty.

    The details of the 1965 Aussie deployment were written almost right next to it, this makes me think what else are they screwing up on this link.

    You really should place your sources in the post you are writing on.

    The link that you posted shows that their were three friendly fire incidents during that operation none were by Australians.

    As for Arty drop shorts that is unfortunately a occurrence that can happen. It is not the Gunners or their CO's fault, it usually is the Arty round in this case due to 'damp powder' (?)
    As opposed to air craft firing or Infantry firing at the wrong target.
    Down here in Australia the Arty is jokingly and affectionaly refered toas Drop Shorts.

    I am still waiting for your source on the Australian digger who called in a Arty strike to the wrong coordinates. When, where and what units were involved?

    I am not saying it did not happen. I just want to see your sources for the incident as well as other appropriate sources to your other posts, as blabbing of at the mouth about incidents with out sources quoted is not a good way to learn or show the truth.

    Also what books are you talking about, the two at the bottom of that article.
    Maybe you should post the Titles, ISBN number, Author and so on of any book that you feel is a source for any of your posts and post the book information in the actual post it is intended for, not at the bottom of a link that is not that releveant on a WW2 site.

    Regards
    Cobber
    .
     
  12. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    We really ought to apply fairness to the subject. All forces suffer from this problem,. We have been in conflicts more often and longer than most. We recently hit Danish soldiers. 1471 the Battle of Barnet, a banner was believed to have been one of the oppositions the archers shot at their own side. Battle of barking creek 1 RAF pilot shot down and killed, HMS Sheffield attacked by FAA during Bismarck attack. HMS Triton torpedoed HMS Oxley. Tactical bombing (battlefield) was a problem for the USAAF and the RAF both hit their own sides .1970s we had a few minutes where two units were firing at each other Bogside NI (Tac HQ) stopped it when they heard our contact reports on two frequencies. We tended to use the secrets act more than the Americans to cover up. There is probably not one conflict where this problem did not occur on all sides.
     
    A-58 likes this.
  13. stephenmyall

    stephenmyall Member

    Honestly, I don't know where this joke came from(do they make a joke because Americans portrayed themselves in Hollywood as cowboys and they make a joke for the fun of it?)

    I posted this joke (in hind site probably inappropriately) as the 2nd post of this thread to the originator (a member I frequently engage with on my own WW2 interests) and in the spirit of posts I have follow in other threads on serious subjects which sometimes have a little jocular interlude here and there. My intention was not to offend.

    This was something my GF said to me when I was a young boy during the 1970's (in less PC times). I really cant answer for him as he is no longer with us but I cherish the memory of listening to his endless recollections of the war . Maybe the quote above is right and maybe he was wrong to say these things but the truth is I really dont know (the 1970s were different times). I want to apologise to anyone on this forum who was offended by the joke.
    As native of Belfast I have learned to be thick skinned (not to allow myself to be offended, a big challenge I can tell you!) and to understand anothers perspective. I sometimes forget there are many out there that don't share the same philosophy as I, so I can only say in conclusion, God bless free speech.
     
  14. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Stevenmyall
    I don't feel the need of your apology - that saying was very much current in WW2 and was also appreciated by many Americans who throughly agreed with it as they had also suffered from the effects of the mainly indiscriminate practices used by the then USAAF- with the aside that the RAF - DAF and others were not guiltless- but as in all things - we have one nutter who claims insult and proceeds to insult all by failing to back up his tale of woe with any facts or references - then goes to great lengths to prove that the RN killed 900 odd US troops at an exercise and when challenged - he then agrees that the troops were at fault .....then starts to insult the Australian forces in Viet Nam - at length quoting from some American comic book.....and like the Tea planter on his retirement when asked to give his helper a berth in the new managers team - wrote that he should give him a very wide berth.....likewise this nutter..
    Cheers
     
  15. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    but i checked into Wikipedia friendly fire
    An article that it would appear you largely rewrote, and then attempted to alter again under a different username, after being kicked off Wikipedia.

    Care to explain the obsession with Friendly Fire, and perhaps why you seem so intent on spreading confusion about an otherwise serious/interesting subject?

    ~A
     
    Formerjughead and Smudger Jnr like this.
  16. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    An article that it would appear you largely rewrote, and then attempted to alter again under a different username, after being kicked off Wikipedia.

    Care to explain the obsession with Friendly Fire, and perhaps why you seem so intent on spreading confusion about an otherwise serious/interesting subject?

    ~A


    Adam,

    Thank you for bringing this to the members attention.

    Makes me think of Revisionist :(

    Just what we do not need on this forum.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  17. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Earlier on in this thread, at my posting No.7, I mentioned the time when I found myself being shelled by "friendly fire" which was actually being provided by my brother's guns.

    At the actual time, it was not the easiest of situations and though I have made light of it now it could have easily have ended in the untimely death of all of my tank's crew including yours truly.

    After the war I had plenty of opportunities to discuss the matter with Mick and he tried to explain to me how these sort of incidents were, to use his phrase, "two a penny".

    Friendly fire will always be with us, no matter how hard we try to avoid it and in WW2 no one particular side was blameless.

    Ron
     
    A-58 likes this.
  18. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    So on the original query, you chaps definitely used the term 'Friendly Fire'.
    Any other common or 'official' terms in use at the time (other than the obvious expletives directed at the perpetrators)?
    Just wondering if the war diary readers might have noted any other contemporary phraseology that crops up.
     
  19. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Adam -
    I am sure there many other definitions - but hardly printable - I know we had another term for it - especially when they upset our breakfast !
    Cheers
     
  20. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

Share This Page