French Armour 1940

Discussion in '1940' started by Owen, Sep 22, 2006.

  1. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    One for the bookshelf?
    Captured French tanks under the German flag
    by Werner Regenberg

    [​IMG]



    Article from Bovington website.
    D Day Tanks and countdown to 60th anniversary of D-Day from the Tank Museum Bovington
    Panzer Regiment 22
    As the tank element of 21st Panzer Division (famous for its associations with Rommel and the desert war) PanzerRegiment 22 had been in Normandy longer than any other but it was poorly equipped for the challenge it had to face. The regiment consisted of two battalions (or Abteilung) each divided into four companies (Kompanie). The 1st Battalion was reasonably well off, each company comprising 17 Panzer IV, but the 2nd Battalion could only manage five or six Panzer IV per company; its remaining armour included 39 old French Somua tanks and various self-propelled anti-tank guns based on Hotchkiss and Lorraine chassis captured from the French.
     
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Somua S35 with 6 pounder used by Yugoslavs.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Char Bs were turned into flamethrower tanks (several came up against 1st AB at Arnhem)

    like these



    I'm taking my own thread slighty off topic here.
    I did want to discuss the French use of their own Armour against the Germans.
     
  5. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    This is a selection of planned vehicles which reached either prototype or mock up stage. Not all planned vehicles are covered (no B1 ter or AMX 38 yet).
    Bizarre vehicles here On the Drawing Board (1) : Tanks and Armoured Cars

    Look at the size of the FCM F1
     
  6. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Thats like the French version of the Maus Owen!! Great pics and references!:D
     
  7. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    To reinforce the point on German persectives on French armour.
    Germany was actually rather impressed with the French gear they captured, admittedly in it's original form it became a largely secondary asset after the French campaign but so did the bulk of the German armoured vehicles from that era.
    It's most important use was in reworked vehicles, they were meticulous in their examination of captured materiel to the extent that many captured quads and other FATs were even rebuilt with newly designed bodywork more in keeping with German ideas in what became a production line process.

    On the armoured side these vehicles are all based on French kit, (I'm bored and feel like refreshing my own memory so excuse the long list, all compiled from Jentz & Doyle, by no means exhaustive):

    lorraine schlepper:
    7.5cm Geschutzwagen sdkfz135 - 170 conversions.
    15cm Geschutzwagen sdkfz135/1- 94 conversions.
    10.5cm Geschutzwagen - 12 conversions.

    Char based:
    Flammwagen B29(f) - 60 conversions.
    10.5cm LeFH18/3 - 16 conversions.
    (Examples of hundreds of Chars captured.. many served on Jersey in their original form).

    Somua based:
    S35 - served in anti-partisan duties and many secondary sectors, still 12 in service in december '44.

    H38 based:
    H38 itself, ditto above - 29 still in service on the date above,
    7.5cm Pak40(sf) - 24 converted.
    10.5cm LeFH18(sf) - 48 converted.

    FCM36 based:
    10.5cm LeFH16(sf) - 12 converted.
    7.5cm Pak40(sf) - 10 converted.

    R35 based:
    R35 - many used in garrisons, also issued to PzJgr units asa command vehicles.
    Marder 4.7cm PaK(t) auf r35 - 174 converted.

    Renault ZT:
    8cm Schwere Granatwerfer.

    Renault UE - became the standard German army all purpose schlepper.

    FT17 - Ubiquitous garrison vehicle.

    Most, if not all of the above would serve in the East. The SS was a major recipient of captured gear.


    Halftracks:
    Leichte schutzenpanzerwagen U304(f)
    Mittlere Gepanzerter Zugkraftwagen S303(f)
    Mittlere Schutenpanzerwagen S307(f)
    Panzerspahwagen Panhard(f)
    (many of the above were converted to carry their German armament in 1944.)

    Cheers,
    adam.

    Edit: Sorry Owen, just registered your AHF list... hohum.
     
  8. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Reading up on this today and one major factor against French armour was how thirsty the French tanks were compared to the Germans. Refuelling from wheeled-tankers took a lot longer for the French than for the Germans who often used "Jerry" cans.
    The wheeled tankers also had zero cross-country ability which restricted their freedom of movement.

    French commanders had no intiative so were always referring to the next level of Command before making a descision. Whereas the Germans Commanders were encouraged to solve their own problems.
    One French counter-attack at Sedan took 12 hours from the intial order until the troops started the attack. The German response took 10 minutes to organise!.
    To combat the Char 1 Bis the Germans soon learnt to aim for the armoured louvres on the side-rear which protected the oil radiator and passed on this knowledge to other formations.
    Some French Armoured attacks intially had sucess against the Germans, even against Panzer IIIs. But German re-enforcemnets soon tipped the scales.
    Another problem the French Armoured units encountered was the roads up to the Front were choked with refugees and worse still other French units in full retreat.
     
  9. drgslyr

    drgslyr Senior Member

    The Germans made more conversions than I was aware of and yet, given the number of vehicles available, the number of conversions was still extremely small. I also notice they were used in secondary service roles, probably where nothing else was available. I see no evidence in any of the examples that suggests the Germans were overly impressed with French armour.
     
  10. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Look up those conversions mate, from 41-44 we're talking serious frontline equipment.
    The secondary use of non-converted gear is a major thing too, each FT17 or H35 carrying out policing or anti-partisan duties theoretically represents one more Pz.III or IV for the more 'active' areas or a chassis of a standardised German design for conversion to other useful and more easily serviced vehicles.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
  11. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Feldwebel Nokel, 22 year old tank commander of a Panzer III in 5th Panzer Division.
    "......Then my driver suddenly shouted: 'Everyone get out!French tank ahead!' I turned, and saw there was an enemy tank just five metres away from us....crew leapt out of our tank, and took cover behind it"

    Nokel and his crew realised the French tank was no threat as it was abandoned due to running out of petrol so got back in their tank. Moved out the line of fire of the gun, just in case, and then brewed up the French tank.

    These Germans were suffiecently scared of the enemy to abandon their own serviceable Panzer III.

    They were fighting Char 1 bis. 25 of them. German shells were bouncing off them like harmless peas.
    Later they were hit and bailed out again. Driver was wounded. Nokel drove the Pz III back to be repaired.
    The French were ordered to retreat.
     
  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Another problem the French Armoured units encountered was the roads up to the Front were choked with refugees and worse still other French units in full retreat.
    One of the books I checked today refers to this as a major reason that the Armour was so often captured intact, vehicles separated off from their unit by refugee-jams and understandably abandoning their lone vehicle as soon as fighting began. Along with the other factors it became no problem to equip units such as Abteilung 213 with almost nothing but captured CharB1's. Odd unit, stationed on the Channel islands and possibly has the distinction of being the only German armoured formation not to have fired a shot in anger for the whole war.
     
  13. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    One for the bookshelf?


    [​IMG]



    Article from Bovington website.
    D Day Tanks and countdown to 60th anniversary of D-Day from the Tank Museum Bovington

    Excellent...Excellent(Ricardo MontalBahn,Khan)

    Yes......(Leonard Nimoy, Spock)

    Owen, what a great thread, well done, Are you familiar with Schiffer books? If not, check out the site for fun.

    Schifferbooks.com - Surf Memorabilia, Woodcraft, Afrikakorps, Waffen-SS, Rommel, Geisha, Pin-up Girls

    Although many conversions were made with the French Armor. I believe the Wehrmacht did not value it as well as the Czech machines during the first half of the War.

    Does anyone have OB stats on them used in frontline service on the Ostfront as main battle tanks like the Czech
    machines?

    I think 6th Pnz DIV had Czech tanks at the beginning of the invasion of Russia.

    I don't recall any French tanks used in Barbarossa as tank regiment formations. Use for partisan operations would also indicate less than front line qualifications.

    Regardless of the Char 1 Bis being a superior tank to the Pz. III or IV, If the 88 was in play, it just didn't matter.
     
  14. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    In reference to a point HO made about the Germans favouring the Czech designs over the French, I think that was because they took over the Skoda Works which meant they were able to PRODUCE czech designs as well as appropriating the current Stock of the Czech Army. Which brings me to the question: did the French production lines provide any armor to the Germans or was it just stock already made by the French that the Germans used. and if they didnt use their production facilities, well then why not???
     
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    From here.Achtung Panzer! - Marder Series
    Marder I (Sd.Kfz.135).
    Built on Tracteur Blinde 37L's chassis
    Also, 21st Panzer Division's Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 200, commanded by now Major Alfred Becker, fielded some 24 Marder Is in the Normandy battles. They proved very effective, and Allied troops often reported them as self-propelled 88mm anti-tank guns.
     
  16. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    In reference to a point HO made about the Germans favouring the Czech designs over the French, I think that was because they took over the Skoda Works which meant they were able to PRODUCE czech designs as well as appropriating the current Stock of the Czech Army. Which brings me to the question: did the French production lines provide any armor to the Germans or was it just stock already made by the French that the Germans used. and if they didnt use their production facilities, well then why not???
    This has been occupying my mind and I hesitate to answer, I'm no expert on industrial production in occupied France. The Czech factories were obtained before any 'real' hostilities had begun and were already bedded in making designs as good as, or superior, to the French ones (Pz35 & 38t respectively) As the French factories were captured during a heating up war it wouldn't seem sensible to continue with manufacturing indigenous designs that were becoming as obsolete as the Pz.1 & 2 whereas the Pz.38(t) had a couple of years left in it as a useful frontline tank. In short, I'd say the French tanks were well worth the effort of converting but the Czech ones slotted into German structures more easily not needing any design work to increase the number of crew to that required in German Doctrine. The 38(t) (or LT-38) was also, purely and simply an excellent vehicle.
    ??
     
  17. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    I just think that even using the chassis design for example of the Somua, you might be able to design an SP or Anti-Tank design such as the Hetzer with the P-38 chassis. I see it as an opportunity wasted perhaps.
     
  18. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I just think that even using the chassis design for example of the Somua, you might be able to design an SP or Anti-Tank design such as the Hetzer with the P-38 chassis. I see it as an opportunity wasted perhaps.
    No strangers to wasted opportunities those nazi's.:)

    I'm hoping that someone with a better grip on occupied industrial policy could give us some more proven answers?
    I've got some basic and possibly relevant stuff from the Oxford Companion:
    • French Industry initially in a very bad state due to the huge numbers of men sent to the front.
    • Vichy regime being allowed some semblance of a distinctively 'French' economy. including a 10-year plan concentrating primarily on agriculture.
    • By 1943 Germany taking 40% of French industrial output including 80% of it's vehicle output. (Is this significant? their truck or softskin production facilities were far more substantial, it could be said 'best in the world' and therefore perhaps more useful than their Armoured production lines).
    • France the most important source of Foodstuff & manufactured goods for the Reich, 1/4 of Germany's GNP.
    • Raw materials a major priority in the German plan for France. Quantities handed over to Germany being: 74% of her Mineral Ores, 51% of her steel, 50% of her bauxite, 75% of her Aluminium, 67% of her Copper, etc. etc.
    • There is another table (with some caution recommended over the figures) implying that 67% and upwards of German aeronautical needs were fulfilled by French orders? Not sure if I've interpreted that right though?? sounds odd but if correct that would understandably put continuation of French Armour in the shade as the buildup to the assault on Great Britain was being considered?
    It seems that France could offer far more useful stuff to the Reich (including 56% of it's Champagne output!) than the potential armour production.

    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
  19. Gnomey

    Gnomey World Travelling Doctor

    France was very useful to the Nazi's that is without doubt (so was Czechoslovakia). I would like to see that table Adam, as I don't believe that either. The French tanks were used by the Germans a fair amount though with some still being in use until at least 1944. As for 1940 the French tanks were generally better than anything the German's had in oppostion but the tactics were woeful (with perhaps De-Gaulle being the exception). With better tactics the French and British could of probably halted the German blitzkrieg and then what? It might decend back into the stalemate and carnage of WW1 except the stalemate wouldn't probably last as long as both sides developed technology that would of helped to break it.
     
  20. drgslyr

    drgslyr Senior Member

    Look up those conversions mate, from 41-44 we're talking serious frontline equipment.
    The secondary use of non-converted gear is a major thing too, each FT17 or H35 carrying out policing or anti-partisan duties theoretically represents one more Pz.III or IV for the more 'active' areas or a chassis of a standardised German design for conversion to other useful and more easily serviced vehicles.

    I agree that the secondary use of captured equipment was important, that is not in doubt. I followed the thread from the other forum suggested by Owen D,

    Axis History Forum :: View topic - Captured & converted French equipments in axis service

    and the only thing that surprised me was the conversion of tanks to AT platforms that might have played a more significant role than I had guessed. But if we are just discussing tanks (and even converted tanks), very few French vehicles saw frontline service by the Germans. Most were relegated to secondary theatres of operation, used to combat partisan uprisings, or handed over to Germany's allies. None of these uses suggests a great deal of confidence in French armour.

    At the beginning of Operation Barbarossa the Germans had no idea they would be facing anything like the T-34, yet even the best of the French tanks were not used (I will qualify this statement by saying 'in significant numbers'). At that stage they should still have been serviceable as front-line vehicles. I take their non-use to mean that the merits of the French tanks did not compensate for their deficiencies.

    I don't want to give the impression that I believe German armour was superior to French armour during the French campaign, just that each had a different set of strengths and weaknesses, and to designate French tanks as the best for the time period is, in my opinion, a fallacy because you cannot base a tank's credibility on only two factors, namely its armament and armour.
     

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