Fighting withdrawal to St.Valery-en-Caux

Hi john
no offence was intended I know and no offence from my part as you stated it must have been chaotic near the end and as someone that was in North Africa Sicily and
Italy with the 8th Army with the Kens at 17 years of age all of the nine infantry regiments in our divsion were supported by us but unfortunately the gunners were hardly mentioned in their attacks which seemed to me to be unfair although we were infantry the same as them

kind regards niccar

 

Hi Niccar,

Thanks for the understanding. You may be the one to help here.

When you were detached, away from your parent Bn, and then sub deployed by Plt. How long were you detached for? (I suppose it depended on the mision or task) and who looked after you? your CQMS or the unit you were attached to's CQMS, for food ammo etc. It must have been a pretty fluid situation.

At the time of the desert war your Bn, I believe, would have beeen re-org'ed into 3 x MG Coys and 1 x Mortar Coy, that would. possibly, have been 1 x Coy per Bde or was it not a stiff as that. 3 x Coys supporting a Div must have been pretty hectic to say the least.

Regards

John

 

Hello! is there anybody out there?

As you may, or may not, know I'm collecting information on my grandfathers' Bn, 7RNF, and, as Chesterflyer has informed me, at the muster at Gosforth Park in '39? many of the Fusiliers volunteered to go back to the mines (reserved occupation) and their places were filled with Durham Light Infantry, Duke of Wellingtons' Regt (West Riding) and Rifles Militia (from the London area). Does anyone know the Bns and or Coys which supplied the men?

 

Only 2 ex Durham Light Infantry Killed 1939-40 whilst with the 7NF

4447106 L/Cpl John William Brown Aged 33 2 June 1940
4442619 Fus William Martin Harper 12 Dec 1939

Harpers Number falls into block 4442001 - 4443000,original enlistment July 1922 - 19 September 1923.

Browns number falls into 4447001 - 4448000,original enlistment 21 June 1928 - 19 February 1930

Both were probably old soldiers re-enlisting the `Enlistment and Discharge Books may show which DLI battalion they came from .
A different format from the 1921 books, the Army Book 358 Register of Soldiers, was introduced in 1931. The registers, which are less detailed than the earlier enlistment books, record the following information:

Army No./Names (in full) (Surname first)/Transfer to other Corps/Reg or cause of becoming non-effective and record of re-enlistment (if any) (including date). There is a name index at the end of each volume.
These books may have some of the answers but to be honest I was aware of NF coming to the Durhams but have seen very little evidence to say the Durhams went to the NF in any great numbers.Durham had their own coalfields and the `weeding` of reserved occupations took place in every North-East Regiment (Coal Mining,Steel,Agriculture,Shipbuilding etc).The 10th 11th 12th DLI were formed as duplicate battalions taking up the surplus from 6th,8th 9th DLI and went to France only partially trained.
Anyway these books survive at the Durham Records Office in Durham City.

Best Wishes
Jim

 

Hi, trying to find out more about the 1RHA that retreated with 51HD to St Valery, I have 'RA - years of Defeat 1940-41' but it is spotty.
I believe they were equipped with 18/25pdrs, but not sure of the tows, or of any specific actions they supported, can anyone help

Family connection

Steve

 

Thanks for the info Jim. I thought the same myself, about the DLI boys jobs, coal miners etc. The point you make about Fusiliers going to DLI but not the other way round suggests, either these were two of the very few who were cross posted, or our info is wrong. Perhaps the majority of "make up" personnel came from the Duke of Boots and the Rifles.

Regards, John

 

Thanks for the info Jim. I thought the same myself, about the DLI boys jobs, coal miners etc. The point you make about Fusiliers going to DLI but not the other way round suggests, either these were two of the very few who were cross posted, or our info is wrong. Perhaps the majority of "make up" personnel came from the Duke of Boots and the Rifles.

Regards, John


No Problems If it helps ex Duke of Wellington Regt casualties serving with 7NF 1939-40
B BAMFORD 4607797 01/06/1940
A BRADBURY 4608901 28/05/1940 - - 30/05/1940
W J HARDIMENT 4607211 03/06/1940 - - 05/06/1940
F PARKER 4608628 03/06/1940
H TOPPS 4606933 10/06/1940
W WALSH 4608929 11/06/1940 - - 12/06/1940

Militia seems a good bet there`s several references to the DLI receiving these drafts so I would expect the RNF to get a fair few as well.I am aware that 8th NF received 200 Militiamen ,followed in 1940 by 170 from No2 MTB and 80 from the Queens Westminister Rifles.
Just as a side note on 26th Sept 1939 6DLI had no option but to `Free` 46 men required for `Key Civilian service`this practice continued and was to bedevil the Division as a whole in the coming months (Moses Faithful 6th) The publication also notes over a Hundred replacements arriving at the back end of 1939 mainly from the KSLI.

Jim

 

That's brlliant Jim,

When you say Militia, would these have been from Durham, the "NE" or just any Militia available to fill the gaps; kind of makes the idea of a county regt irrelevant. Although it was done during WWI to spread the casualties throughout the country, particularly after the Somme. Pals Bns getting wiped out doesn't help morale on the home front! Saying that, the 51HD was the equivelant to a Pals Division -or was it?

 

My knowledge on the Militia is basic to say the least I am aware that they were formed following the Munich Crisis (I believe) as a form of `acceptable` conscription should war come I believe their terms of service were one year followed by reserve commitments(If this is wrong I`m sure someone will put me right) The first intake however did not see out their first year as war was declared.I`m sorry to have to keep refering back to DLI matters but NF may mirror these.Further to my last post 9th DLI received 88 Militia men on the 16th October 1939 included in this number was a Pte Joe Clark from Chester-le-Street so he was local at least .This batch were bused from Gateshead which implies they were all local but he recalled not being told where they were going or who they were joining at the time joining 9th DLI at Whitburn ranges before they were split into various companies.
A former Militiaman recalled joining up with the regulars just prior to war being officially declared so he could join the DLI (local regiment) after officers had informed the men that `should` war be declared then no guarantees could be given regarding which units they would eventually join.I believe on the declaration of War the Militia ,like the Territorials were conscripted? So references should be ex-Militia after the declaration ,I suppose? Maybe theres an expert out there on Militia units?


Jim

 

Thanks again Jim,

Although I'm trying to find out about my grandad, as a Durham boy myself, Birtley, I'm interested in all things NE, sad, but there it is.

I know from personal experience how difficult it is, having trained and being posted to an Armoured unit, where I made friends and understood the SOPs; on the eve of 1 Gulf War I was posted, to make up the War Establishment of an Artillery unit, leaving me at a loss, both tradewise and moralewise.

I believe that there was trouble in the 50 Div, when instead of being taken back to Egypt for a spot of R&R, they were Battle Casualty Replacemented to Anzio where, as high morale, battle proven Bns, they sort of mutinied as their identity was being forceibly and unsympathetically taken from them.

It makes you wonder how they took to being sent to Bns, in different parts of the country, with different accents, industries/cultures and traditions. Or did peope in those days, just not care?

 

Does anyone out there know the ORBAT, or should I say composition, of the French IX Corps when they withdrew with 51st HD towards St Valery 1st - 12th June 1940.

Thank you

 

Ark Force was evacuated from Le Havre and went to Cherbourg. I think you may have mis-read it Andy. Below; ArkForce and 51st HD Orbats.


ARK force comprised the following:
4th Battalion, The Black Watch
7th Battalion, The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
8th Battalion, The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
6th Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers (Pioneers)
4th Battalion, the Boarder Regiment - "A" Brigade
5th Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters - "A" Brigade
4th Battalion, The Buffs - "A" Brigade
1st Battalion, Princess Louise's Kensington Regiment (less two companies)
17th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
75th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
51st Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery (204 battery)
236th Field Company, Royal Engineers
237th Field Company, Royal Engineers
239th Field Park Company, Royal Engineers
213th Army Field Company, Royal Engineers
154th Field Ambulance
Detachments from 525, 526 and 527 Companies RASC




ORDER OF BATTLE
51ST (HIGHLAND) DIVISION, 1940

Major General V.M. Fortune, CB, DSO
Lt Col H Swinburn, GSO1

1st Bn. The Lothians & Border Horse (Yeomanry)
152nd Brigade: Brigadier H.W.V. Stewart, DSO
2nd Bn. The Seaforth Highlanders
4th Bn. The Seaforth Highlanders
4th Bn. The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders
153rd Brigade: Brigadier G. T. Burnet, MC
4th Bn. The Black Watch
1st Bn. The Gordon Highlanders
5th Bn. The Gordon Highlanders
154th Brigade: Brigadier A.CL. Stanley-Clarke DSO
1st Bn. The Black Watch
7th Bn. The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
8th Bn. The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
Royal Artillery: CR.A., Brigadier H.CH. Eden, MC
17th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
23rd Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
75th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
51st Anti-tank Regiment, Royal Artillery
Royal Engineers: CRE., Lt Col H M Smail, TD
26th Field Company, Royal Engineers
236th Field Company, Royal Engineers
237th Field Company, Royal Engineers
239th Field Park Company, Royal Engineers
Royal Corps of Signals: Lt Col T.P.E. Murray
51st Divisional Signals Company
Royal Army Medical Corps: AD.M.S., Lt Col D.P. Levack
152nd Field Ambulance
153rd Field Ambulance
154th Field Ambulance
Royal Army Service Corps: Lt Col T. Harris-Hunter TD
Divisional Ammunition Company.
Divisional Petrol Company
Divisional Supply Column.
Attached troops
51st Medium Regiment, RA
1st RHA (less one Battery)
97th Field Regiment, RA (one Battery)
213th Army Field Company, RE.
1st Bn Princess Louise's Kensington Regiment (Machine-Gunners)
7th Bn The Royal Northumberland Fusiliers (Machine-Gunners)
6th Bn The Royal Scots Fusiliers (Pioneers)
7th Bn The Norfolk Regiment (Pioneers)
Sections of the Royal Army Ordnance Corps and the Royal Army Service Corps

Where does the 1 Field Squadron R.E. fit into the picture? Anybody found anything in there research. They were there at St. varlery.

 

Just got back from a week in Normandy, what a beautiful part of France, delicious food, fabulous cider, dramatic castles, Monets garden and a great bit of needle work in Bayeux, not to mention the Calvados, oh I just did; with the complement from a Norman lady that we are from the same stock; Vikings that is, not French.

I also got the opportunity to visit St Valery-en-Caux and walk the lanes which my grandfather must have done and paid my respects at the 51st HD memorial. It is always easier to picture written events by walking the ground to get an understanding of the advantages and disadvantages, for both sides, due to the topography and on a warm July day its just impossible to imagine what those boys, nay men, had to endure.

I cannot express in words how proud I am of my grandfather and his comrades but also how desperatley sad I am for all who fell or were captured during another brave episode in the history of the British army, and it's still going on as I write.

 

Where does the 1 Field Squadron R.E. fit into the picture? Anybody found anything in there research. They were there at St. varlery.

Funnily enough I quickly read the units war diary yesterday looking for clues about a motorbike. The Squadron's diary is quite thin but it says that they met up with 51 Div on the 10th June (I think) and there appears to be quite a lot of confusion, as you would expect. The diary says that some of the squadron were evacuated from the beaches at St Valery and some from a town to the north (I'm assuming this is Veules-les-Roses).

 

Hello, I've just ordered "1940 The Last Act" anyone got a review of it or has read it and would like to pass comment. Cheers.

John

 

My Father in Law was with the 4th Battalion Black Watch when they were with Arkforce and was wondering if anyone had any information what they adout them while they were there.

Regards

John

 

Hi John Brown,

From what I read Arkforce was put together to screen, and then cover, or maybe to keep open the route for the withdrawal of 51st HD as they were to make their way to Le Havre. However, German armoured sweeps cut off the division from Arkforce who, reluctantly evacuated through Le Havre, eventually to UK.

They were basically the 154th Bde of the 51st HD and a collection of other Bns, "A" Bde who, nevertheless, gave a good account of themselves.

Originally Posted by 51highland

ARK force comprised the following:

4th Battalion, The Black Watch
7th Battalion, The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
8th Battalion, The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
6th Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers (Pioneers)
4th Battalion, the Border Regiment - "A" Brigade
5th Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters - "A" Brigade
4th Battalion, The Buffs - "A" Brigade
1st Battalion, Princess Louise's Kensington Regiment (less two companies)
17th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
75th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
51st Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery (204 battery)
236th Field Company, Royal Engineers
237th Field Company, Royal Engineers
239th Field Park Company, Royal Engineers
213th Army Field Company, Royal Engineers
154th Field Ambulance
Detachments from 525, 526 and 527 Companies RASC

 

My Father in Law was with the 4th Battalion Black Watch when they were with Arkforce and was wondering if anyone had any information what they adout them while they were there.

Regards

John


I've just finished reading Saul David's Sacrifice of the Highland Division and there is some good detail in there on the 4th Black Watch. Infact there's some good detail in it full stop.

Ref Arkforce IIRC correctly they were prodominately units within 154 Bde fron 51 Div. sent towards Le Havre to defend a line somewhere near Fecamp, eventually being cut off from the other two Bde's.

I'd definately recommend the above book-Its that good I might actually find some time to visit the Saar front.

 

Good evening
I have spent a very interesting hour reading through this with great interest. my grandfather was A coy Cmdr 7th Bn argylls and mortally wounded moving from Quesnoy to franleu. I understand from the books I have read and looking at the Coy reports, that for some reason the medics had moved from Franleu and no one seems to know where. The wounded (of whom there were by the end of the day) were looked after by the Padre who elected to remain behind when the CO gave clearance for the remainder of the Bn to move out.
As my grandfather died some 5 days later it has always bothered me that no medical support was given to him or the other wounded. I have been impressed by the research ability of members and wonder if any light can be shed.

Incidently He was a TA officer but had served in the MMC from 1917 until it was disbanded, he was commissioned into the Manchester Regt so there is a slight connection to the start of the thread. I am also a retired long derving member of the TA but will add my points at a later date

many thanks

 

Anybody out there?

I'm looking to find the Btys of the following RA Regts which were with the 51HD at the end.

51st Medium Regiment, RA
1st RHA (less one Battery)
97th Field Regiment, RA (one Battery)

Any knowledge, history or contact would be greatly appriciated.

Thanks, John