Fighting withdrawal to St.Valery-en-Caux

Discussion in '1940' started by John Lawson, Nov 9, 2010.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Ahh. I see the confusion.

    They were all evacuated at Le Havre and some 2,222 British troops were taken to England and 8,837 troops were taken to Cherbourg to continue fighting.

    ATB's Blitzkreig in the West page 485.
     
  2. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    Ark Force was evacuated from Le Havre and went to Cherbourg. I think you may have mis-read it Andy. Below; ArkForce and 51st HD Orbats.


    ARK force comprised the following:
    4th Battalion, The Black Watch
    7th Battalion, The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
    8th Battalion, The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
    6th Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers (Pioneers)
    4th Battalion, the Boarder Regiment - "A" Brigade
    5th Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters - "A" Brigade
    4th Battalion, The Buffs - "A" Brigade
    1st Battalion, Princess Louise's Kensington Regiment (less two companies)
    17th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
    75th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
    51st Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery (204 battery)
    236th Field Company, Royal Engineers
    237th Field Company, Royal Engineers
    239th Field Park Company, Royal Engineers
    213th Army Field Company, Royal Engineers
    154th Field Ambulance
    Detachments from 525, 526 and 527 Companies RASC




    ORDER OF BATTLE
    51ST (HIGHLAND) DIVISION, 1940

    Major General V.M. Fortune, CB, DSO
    Lt Col H Swinburn, GSO1

    1st Bn. The Lothians & Border Horse (Yeomanry)
    152nd Brigade: Brigadier H.W.V. Stewart, DSO
    2nd Bn. The Seaforth Highlanders
    4th Bn. The Seaforth Highlanders
    4th Bn. The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders
    153rd Brigade: Brigadier G. T. Burnet, MC
    4th Bn. The Black Watch
    1st Bn. The Gordon Highlanders
    5th Bn. The Gordon Highlanders
    154th Brigade: Brigadier A.CL. Stanley-Clarke DSO
    1st Bn. The Black Watch
    7th Bn. The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
    8th Bn. The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
    Royal Artillery: CR.A., Brigadier H.CH. Eden, MC
    17th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
    23rd Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
    75th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
    51st Anti-tank Regiment, Royal Artillery
    Royal Engineers: CRE., Lt Col H M Smail, TD
    26th Field Company, Royal Engineers
    236th Field Company, Royal Engineers
    237th Field Company, Royal Engineers
    239th Field Park Company, Royal Engineers
    Royal Corps of Signals: Lt Col T.P.E. Murray
    51st Divisional Signals Company
    Royal Army Medical Corps: AD.M.S., Lt Col D.P. Levack
    152nd Field Ambulance
    153rd Field Ambulance
    154th Field Ambulance
    Royal Army Service Corps: Lt Col T. Harris-Hunter TD
    Divisional Ammunition Company.
    Divisional Petrol Company
    Divisional Supply Column.
    Attached troops
    51st Medium Regiment, RA
    1st RHA (less one Battery)
    97th Field Regiment, RA (one Battery)
    213th Army Field Company, RE.
    1st Bn Princess Louise's Kensington Regiment (Machine-Gunners)
    7th Bn The Royal Northumberland Fusiliers (Machine-Gunners)
    6th Bn The Royal Scots Fusiliers (Pioneers)
    7th Bn The Norfolk Regiment (Pioneers)
    Sections of the Royal Army Ordnance Corps and the Royal Army Service Corps
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  4. jainso31

    jainso31 jainso31

    After an intensive internet search; it seems you were right to doubt me re.7/RNF-they or remnants of that Btn were captured at St Valery with 51HD. My reference indicates they were not; but I have to admit this is a mistake-my apologies to all concerned.

    jainso31
    PS.I have to stress that I DID make an independant search.
     
  5. Hengiste

    Hengiste Junior Member

    This title of this is about the most detail I have been able to discover about B/O battery that was captured at St Valery with the 51HD.

    Can anybody direct me to a book/archive/website/toilet wall..that has more info?

    I have read David Saul's book, but too find the attached units to have little info.

    My Grandfather was captured with them..similar story to many..March into captivity...Salt Mines with Poles..Alas he passed away while I was still too callow to realise the import of what he was able to tell me.

    Although I do remember him mentioning St Valery, Abbeville and Poles in Salt Mines with him..

    Steve Preston
    ex Royal Australian Artillery...
     
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hi Steve,

    There is a war diary at held at the National Archives, Kew - WO 167/461 1 Regiment Royal Horse Artillery (RHA) that may be of interest.

    Regards
    Andy
     
  7. Hengiste

    Hengiste Junior Member

    Maybe I am just a dummy, but although it appears you can download ir immediately, damned if I can work out how.....

    Steve

    "ignore that, I had to merely hit the 'accept' button' awaiting quote now"
     
  8. chesterflyer

    chesterflyer Member

    Guys, It was the 7th Northumberland Fusiliers a Vickers Machine Gun Battalion that was with the 51st Highland. They were definately not in reserve as they were sent to the sharp end very quickly and attached to the various Jock Regiments. At the Somme phase A Company was situated around Fequires en Vimeau supporting 7th Argylls, B Company on the right flank around Oisimont and St Maxent and giving fire support to 4th Camerons on their attack on Hedgehog Wood near Huchenville. C Company were in direct support of 1GH on their attack on the Grande Bois on the 4th of June (This was the only successful attack of the day which was alter to prove futile). D Coy were in reserve at Preusseville. Over 40 Fusiliers were killed during the Somme St Valery phase. A high total indeed for a Battalion. Many others were wounded.

    In June I took a battlefield tour back to the Maginot Line - Somme - St Valery with 2 of the Fusilier Veterans. An incredible trip and very emotional. Only 7 veterans of a Division of nearly 25000 made it back for the 70th anniversary. An anniversary which went relatively unreported which I find a disgrace!
     
    billminer likes this.
  9. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Hello Chester,
    thanks for that info, I've also got the RNF museum doing some detective work for me as the Records Office in Glasgow are not very helpful and keep hiding behind the Data Protection Act (REMFs).
    I would very much like to hear from Niccar, who, I believe was in the Kensingtons, how were subunits attached/detached and reorg'd? How did they maintain comms with their parent unit, as it seems that if no one was watching over them they could very easily become lost/forgotten/not informed of movements. In a way it was similar to when I and my crew were sent to a broken down tank, once the repair was completed the movement of the opposition forces could have put us in a compromising position i.e. a bit of a mix up in both sides FEBA or FLOT, or to put it in a nutshell, we didn't know where our forces were until someone drove past, then it was either "Phew", or "Bloody Hell"!
     
  10. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Hello Chester,

    I have spoken to Jimmy Charters and he was very helpful, although he was not in the same company as my grandfather, Jimmy was in B Coy whilst my grandfather was in A Coy. They met in the POW camp,so Jimmydid not know which platoon he was in or what job/appointment he had in the Coy/Plt.

    Now I need to dog down what A Coy did from the Maginot line to St Valery. Anyone else out there have any info, please.

    Kind regards

    John
     
  11. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    10th May Btn Hq was at D`Ebervilliers with one front line company,one support and one reserve.A Company was commanded by Captain W S Sanderson.
    Withdrawl from the Maginot Line commenced on the 20th May on the 21st May the battalion (less D Comp and one platoon of C Company who were assisting in covering the withdrawal) were at Amanvillers north of Metz.By the 23rd May the whole battalion had assembled at Lanheres near Etain.The proposed move via Paris to Le Havre was abandoned but not before a billeting party had been dispatched to Pacy (NW of Paris).
    On the 25th May the whole battalion (less the billeting party) had arrived at Cornay near Varennes where they remained until the 26th May.On the 29th May the battalion was at Preuseville near Abbeville ,Somme.
    On the evening of the 29th May A Company came under the control of 154th Infantry Brigade and moved to Millbosc,B Company went to 152nd Infantry brigade and moved to Foret D`Eu.Hq C and D companies remained with the battalion at Preuseville.
    On the 4th June 51 Div put in a failed attack on Abbeville On the 7th June A Company were in action on the River Bresle whilst the rest of the battalion were withdrawn to St Aignan.A Company arrived at La Chaussee on the night of the 8th/9th Jne On the 10th June A and C companies were placed under the orders of 153rd Inf Brigade and moved to Ambrumesnil. That night 10th/11th June A and C companys moved on to Cany but found this heavily occupied and were forced back.Meanwhile the rest of the battalion were destroying their surplus supplies.On the afternoon of the 11th the battalions vehicles and machine guns were destroyed and they marched to St Valery timing their arrival at 0300hrs on the 12th June.When told that there was no possibility of any more ships the Battalion Co marched them out again to a sunken road lined with trees.(less B Comp on Dockworks).Orders for surrender were received and the battalion surrendered at 0940hrs.

    70 officers and men including some who had elected to escape from St valery were posted to the 15th DLI (dunkirk battalion) but in August 1940 found themselves back in the reformed 7th NF after the entire 15th DLI were renamed 7th RNF.

    (Sure I posted this before perhaps for someone else?)


    Jim
     
  12. Jaeger

    Jaeger Senior Member

    Ark Force was evacuated from Le Havre and went to Cherbourg. I think you may have mis-read it Andy. Below; ArkForce and 51st HD Orbats.


    ARK force comprised the following:
    4th Battalion, The Black Watch
    7th Battalion, The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
    8th Battalion, The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
    6th Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers (Pioneers)
    4th Battalion, the Boarder Regiment - "A" Brigade
    5th Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters - "A" Brigade
    4th Battalion, The Buffs - "A" Brigade
    1st Battalion, Princess Louise's Kensington Regiment (less two companies)
    17th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
    75th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
    51st Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery (204 battery)
    236th Field Company, Royal Engineers
    237th Field Company, Royal Engineers
    239th Field Park Company, Royal Engineers
    213th Army Field Company, Royal Engineers
    154th Field Ambulance
    Detachments from 525, 526 and 527 Companies RASC




    ORDER OF BATTLE
    51ST (HIGHLAND) DIVISION, 1940

    Major General V.M. Fortune, CB, DSO
    Lt Col H Swinburn, GSO1

    1st Bn. The Lothians & Border Horse (Yeomanry)
    152nd Brigade: Brigadier H.W.V. Stewart, DSO
    2nd Bn. The Seaforth Highlanders
    4th Bn. The Seaforth Highlanders
    4th Bn. The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders
    153rd Brigade: Brigadier G. T. Burnet, MC
    4th Bn. The Black Watch
    1st Bn. The Gordon Highlanders
    5th Bn. The Gordon Highlanders
    154th Brigade: Brigadier A.CL. Stanley-Clarke DSO
    1st Bn. The Black Watch
    7th Bn. The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
    8th Bn. The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
    Royal Artillery: CR.A., Brigadier H.CH. Eden, MC
    17th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
    23rd Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
    75th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery
    51st Anti-tank Regiment, Royal Artillery
    Royal Engineers: CRE., Lt Col H M Smail, TD
    26th Field Company, Royal Engineers
    236th Field Company, Royal Engineers
    237th Field Company, Royal Engineers
    239th Field Park Company, Royal Engineers
    Royal Corps of Signals: Lt Col T.P.E. Murray
    51st Divisional Signals Company
    Royal Army Medical Corps: AD.M.S., Lt Col D.P. Levack
    152nd Field Ambulance
    153rd Field Ambulance
    154th Field Ambulance
    Royal Army Service Corps: Lt Col T. Harris-Hunter TD
    Divisional Ammunition Company.
    Divisional Petrol Company
    Divisional Supply Column.
    Attached troops
    51st Medium Regiment, RA
    1st RHA (less one Battery)
    97th Field Regiment, RA (one Battery)
    213th Army Field Company, RE.
    1st Bn Princess Louise's Kensington Regiment (Machine-Gunners)
    7th Bn The Royal Northumberland Fusiliers (Machine-Gunners)
    6th Bn The Royal Scots Fusiliers (Pioneers)
    7th Bn The Norfolk Regiment (Pioneers)
    Sections of the Royal Army Ordnance Corps and the Royal Army Service Corps

    Do you know how many were left of the Argylls? IIRC one of the bns (8th?) were so depleted that both bns merged.

    and

    What became of Brigader Stanley Clarke (154th Bde), did he survive the war? What posts did he hold?
     
  13. TomTAS

    TomTAS Very Senior Member

    HI John,

    Just checked Richard Doherty book None Bolder 'John' name doens't show in that but it might be well worth getting...

    Cheers
    Tom
     
  14. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Thanks for the info Verrieres, Jaeger and Tomtas,

    As you will have read previously, I have been in conversation with a very coherent 92 year old veteran of the 7RNF, Mr Jimmy Charters, and he has confirmed that my grandfather was in A (Morpeth) Co. I now have to find out as much as possible about this company, who it was attached to, where it operated and the names of those in it.

    Any help would be gratefully accepted.

    With regard to contributions to nominated charities, I will give to the RBL, as always and I already raise money for H4H in the Worcester area.

    Kind reagards to all who supply info

    John
     
  15. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    PS, I thought that maybe 51 Highlander may have detailed info on who supported who in the withdrawal.
     
  16. chesterflyer

    chesterflyer Member

    John,

    If you check our facebook page "7th Royal Northumberland Fusiliers St Valery 1940" The whole 4 pages of Brig Barclays Account are on the notes section. The regiment Diary only goes up to the 31st of may as it was destroyed prior to capture so it misses out most of what the bn did on the Somme.
     
  17. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    Cheers Chester,

    I have read that and informative it is but I'd like to know how it felt and what went on. Very few talk of it and when they do, like good old boys, the leave out the nasty harrowing bits.
    Did they feel defeated? The accounts I have read from other (Dunkirk) units suggest they were frustrated and angry at having to retreat when they had not yet been defeated, as on each engagement they seem to have got the better of the enemy and were only falling back because they had to conform with French manoevres.
    What was the role of an MG Bn HQ and HQ Co?
    How did they break from the enemy?
    How much did their parent Brigade look after them?
    How were they resupplied? MGs eat a lot of rounds quickly. Having been a No2 on a GPMG I was always festooned with belts of ammo and moving quickly was more a state of mind than a physical possibility.
    What transport did they have?
    How was it looked after/maintained?
    How did they accomplish Replens?
    And all this while fighting, retreating and been attacked, and still clinging on to the belief that they could be evacuated like those earlier from Dunkirk; all in days work for the TA PBI.

    Anybody got any ideas?

    Cheers

    John
     
  18. Jaeger

    Jaeger Senior Member

    How were they resupplied? MGs eat a lot of rounds quickly. Having been a No2 on a GPMG I was always festooned with belts of ammo and moving quickly was more a state of mind than a physical possibility.




    Davids book a lot of actions is described. Shortage of ammo seems to have been a common occurence. In most cases there seems to have been loss of wireless, leadng to a subaltern checking in on the Platoon or Coy. Then more ammo would be sent forth, often by carrier.

    As a side note during a holding action one of the Bren gunners shot 5,000 rounds. Amazing.


    Did they feel defeated?



    In St. Valery a fair bit of crying happened during the surrender. The squaddie did not know the big picture. The BW preparing for an attack on the cliffs (both sides of the harbour were occupied by the germans and they commanded the approach to the harbour) and when the order for surrender came the were devastated.

    The Seaforths kept on fighting for a bit, and David records several smaller parties continnuing to fight. (some might not have received the order to surrender.)

    Sorry for the lecture tone, but I don't know if you have read his book.
     
  19. John Lawson

    John Lawson Arte et Marte

    I wouldn't have wanted to do the barrel changes on that gun, (must have been about 30!) he must have hands made of asbestos (as long as he had a survey and management plan for the asbestos, oops sorry).

    The only experience I have had with prisoners was taking loads (hundreds and hundreds) during the first Gulf War. They all seemed pretty pathetic to me, shocked, stunned, disorientated, and scarred shitless, as their officers had told them that we, the infidel, would kill them on sight, unfortunately it was only their officers that did that sort of thing. We, being soft Brits, gave them water, cigarettes, food and warm clothing; funny thing our belief in fair play. I was unsettled when I read how the prisoners at St. Valery were treated, allbeit by second line troops i.e. running for long distaces, very little food and drink, humiliation and embarassment. It makes you wonder what makes some people tick.
    I believe that the strength of the British army lies in the (County) Regimental system, when all else fails you, you can call on 300 year of unwavering history to put a ramrod up your back and help you face and deal with overwhelming situations. Pity succesive British Governments continue to amalgamate and then slice away battalions who have given and will continue to give everything for their country (Hmm gone of at a tangent there).
     
  20. Peccavi

    Peccavi Senior Member

    I have decide to contribute because seem to ask what was it like in a MG TA unit.

    My father was in 4th battalion Cheshires, also Vickers MG gunners (TA) but later in the War was transferred to 2nd battalion (regulars).

    As usual, you only get snippets and often the standard response is "war is messy and gory and the less said about it the better".

    Anyway on 30th April they were relieved on the Maginot line by the 7th RNF.

    7RNF, being big farming lads and fishermen, might have been in better condition that the Cheshires who were mainly recruited from Birkenhead and the Wirral. The physical condition of many of the soldiers was very poor, remember these kids had gone through the hungry 30's where for days all you might get to eat was bread and dripping - in fact 5 men in his Company weighed in at less than 8 stone and had to report daily for their extra pint of milk.

    Training was poor - more appropriate for the First and than the Second Wold War - all route marches and grenade throwing! What they needed was upper body strength. My father was Number One so all he had to carry was the 50lb tripod. His number 2 who was hardly over 5 foot had the gun to carry, poor devil. Fortunately they did not need to do much porting in the retreat on Dunkirk.

    On the Maginot, they did live firing in a disused Coal Mine. After 10 minutes so much coal dust was kicked up that the exercise was pointless. Interesting to hear if your 7RNF veteran had the same experience.

    They knew they were not as good as Regulars. Lieutenants were decent blokes but, other than the Major, the Officers were clearly learning as they went. In fact, many of the Officers were extremely wealthy, seemed to have made money as Cotton Merchants in Liverpool or Landed Gentry from Cheshire. Even some of the Men were very rich, the QM Sargent was a Stockbroker and one of the wealthiest men in Liverpool. But of course the majority were not. They were a very mixed bunch of Militia, TA and quite a few old Regulars recalled from the Reserve with some Manchesters added to make up the numbers.

    By contrast, in 2nd Battalion the CO was a fitness fanatic and would think nothing of calling out the whole company, with him at the head, and setting off on a run at 2am Sunday morning knowing the lads were full of beer. It was solid and everyone knew what they had to do.

    In my view, it takes just as much and maybe more guts to face up to tough opposition when you know you are the 2nd eleven - so all those TA units get my respect especially the unfortunates in the "Digging" Divisions, Line of Communication.
     

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