Family Soldiers: 1/4th Essex (WW2) & 25 Field Regiment R.A.(Post-War)

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Charley Fortnum, Mar 21, 2015.

  1. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    The correct way is First Fourth.

    Delighted to hear that you have pinned Tom down to 1/4 Essex. Unfortunately, for Other Ranks, very little is held and certainly not recorded in the War Diaries. Unless he was awarded something, you will struggle to find anything below Which Battalion he was in.

    I was standing on Point 236 only last week, looking down on the Castle and explaining what happened to 1/4 Essex during the third Battle of Monte Cassino. It is quite a story.

    Regards

    FdeP
     
  2. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Thanks for the tip - now at least I can pretend not to be an amateur when speaking.

    I'm rather surprised that the company he was a member has probably gone unrecorded. Were movements within a battalion common or is it likely that he would have served in the same one throughout his time in 1/4?

    Any more clues about war diaries - how does one go about getting copies of them? Even if he will not be named, I'd be interested in more information. Some of those I've seen online for other regiments were surprisingly detailed.
     
  3. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    You need to Private Message Drew5233. He provides a fantastic copying service for the National Archives at £0.10 per page. Just tell him the period tyhat you want and I would suggest Jan-May 44 for Cassino.

    You will see when you get them that the WDs cover Officers in detail but not Other Ranks who are merely listed in Returns as Numbers - 13 Sgts, 4 Cpls etc.

    If you ever want to see what 1/4 Essex got up to at Cassino and walk the ground do get in touch. The Castle is quite something.

    Regards

    FdeP
     
  4. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Thanks as ever, minden1759.

    I see from here that there are eight bundles covering '39-'46:
    http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=1%2F4+Essex+Regiment

    Is there any information online as to how long - how many pages - each is?
    Will certainly message Drew when I find out what I need.

    When I finally return to Europe - Lord knows when - the trip to Italy will become an option.
    I'd love to walk the ground after I have read up.
     
  5. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    Unfortunately, there is no information online about the number of pages in a war diary. It can vary enormously between units. Andy would have to look at the files you want and estimate it for you.
     
  6. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Thanks for the information, Ramacal.
     
  7. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    If that trip to Europe is in May 16, look me up. I will be there 5-8 May 16.

    Regards

    FdeP
     
  8. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Will do.

    I've ordered a copy of the regimental history, but has anyone got access to the following pamphlet/booklet?

    1/4th Essex, a Battalion of the Eighth Army by Major Denis Beckett
    (London: Wilson and Wentworth, 1945 or '46), 43pp.

    The only copy I can locate for sale is £45 in tatty condition!
     
  9. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    I have the extracts from this book for 1/4 Essex's time at Cassino. I am just about to get on a plane to run a battlefield tour to Cassino but when I get back I will post the pages to you if that helps.

    If I forget, remind me next week.

    Regards

    FdeP
     
  10. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    You, Sir, are a legend.
    Have you considered a career as a military-history concierge?

    I did also turn these up:
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80022157
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80012306
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80024997
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80031201
    But my MacBook is currently turning its nose up at the weird flash-embed.
    Will fire up an archaic PC in a while...
     
  11. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    And - as if by magic - a photograph showing my grandfather (Thomas Everett) as a member of B Company in 1941 - presumably in Freetown, Sierra Leone.

    Third Row, Third from the Left.

    From the following set:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/126064386@N03/albums/72157646718651624

    I am really delighted to have found it and taken aback by how much I resemble my grandfather as a young man.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  12. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    I said that I would dig out the extracts from the Regt History on 1/4 Essex's time on Castle Hill and Hangman's Hill.

    I will do that today or tomorrow.

    Regards

    Frank
     
  13. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    I have extracted and attached the pages from Denis Beckett's '1/4th Essex. A Battalion of the Eighth Army'.

    The last page mentions the amazing LCpl Nutty Hazel. He died in 2006 and his obituary was in the Daily Telegraph. It is also attached.

    Enjoy.

    Regards

    Frank
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Very much appreciated. Will read and digest this evening.
     
  15. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Searching through those photographs more carefully, I've found another of him - asleep at a training camp in Northumberland! "Typical." says my father.
     
  16. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Army Records 1.jpg Army Records 2.jpg

    I finally have the records, but as ever there is much that is unclear.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  17. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    I have a pretty good understanding of his movements up until 13.12.43, when he was admitted to (what appears to be) 70 Gen Hospital, then transferred to 22 General Hospital on 4.1.44, from which he was discharged to 159 T Camp (training camp?) on 11.1.44 - and then, finally, sent to 5IRT on 3.2.44 before rejoining 1/4th Essex on 10.3.44. (Great timing: they walk into an exceedingly a bloody battle at Cassino five days later).

    I have no locations for any of these camps and hospitals - can anybody help?

    Then on 27/8/44 he was transferred to 5/IRTD [Infantry Reinforcement Training Depot - location unknown - doing what?] and then to 1 CRU (Civilian Resettlement Unit - location unknown - have I got the correct abbreviation?) on 1/11/44, before finally being posted to 3(?) Transit Camp for repatriation [PYTHON] - he left nine days later.

    It's a bit of a mystery to me what was going on with his health and why he was shipped home 'early' instead of going to Greece with 1/4 Essex. Is there any more digging I can do? I'm just about to turn to the regimental history...

    Edit: it looks as if after fighting to the Gothic Line, the battalion was exhausted, left the line on 10.8.44 and was withdrawn to retrain on 20.8.44. It then reorganised on a three-rifle company basis (presumably with reinforcements from 2/4th in England) and those surplus to requirements left the following day. Presumably, having been with the unit since October '39 and overseas since August '40, my grandfather would have been near the front of the line for some time at home.

    As to his being hospitalised, the history is devoid of clues. The battalion landed in Italy on 22/11/43 and spent Christmas at Avigliano, but it has no action or description between. The booklet scans posted by Frank above speak of heavy rain and snow - pneumonia perhaps! It could, of course, have been anything. Are medical records available?
     
    Mark Surridge likes this.
  18. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Most unlikely, I know, but does the following interview overlap with anybody else's research? I'm trying to find a way to lessen the cost of having the seven reels digitised:

    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80020736

    Hawkins, Frederick Cyril
    British NCO served with 4th Bn Essex Regt in GB, Sierra Leone, North Africa, Italy and Greece, 1939-1945

    REEL 1 Background in Towcester, Belcham St Pauls and Burnham on Crouch, 1920-1939: family; education; background to joining 10 Platoon, B Coy, Essex Regt in Territorial Army, 1937-1939. Recollections of period as private with 4th Bn Essex Regt in GB, 1939-1941: call ip, 1/9/1939; duties in Hackney, autumn 1939; move to Witham, 12/1939; coastal defence duties in Northumberland and Wooler, summer 1940; role of tank hunting platoon; his reprimand for wearing dubbined boots. Aspects of period as private with 4th Bn Essex Regt in Sierra Leone, 1940- 1941: voyage from GB to Sierra Leone aboard Monarch of Bermuda, 8/1940; reasons for late disembarking at Freetown; duties in Freetown; living conditions at Wilberforce Barracks; malaria problem. REEL 2 Continues: health problems in Freetown; historical relics on Bunce Island; plan to capture Cape Verde Islands; units and ships based in Freetown; invasion training; conditions in Sierra Leone; description of 'Bombay bloomers'; precautions against mosquitoes; anti-aircraft duties at King Tom; relations with civilians and porters; death of unit member at Freetown. Voyage from Freetown to Egypt, 7/1941: voyage from Freetown to Durban aboard Bergensfjord; reception in South Africa; voyage in Ile De France from Durban to Egypt; burial at sea; accident on board ship at Port Tewfik. Aspects of period as NCO with 4th Bn Essex Regt in Middle East, 1941-1942: arrival in Egypt. REEL 3 Continues: move to Nicosia area, Cyprus, 1941; use of log burning locomotive in Cyprus; move to Nathaniya in Palestine; opinion of commanding officer Colonel Noble. Recollections of operations as Sergeant with 4th Bn Essex Regt in North Africa, 1942-1943: defence duties in Sidi Barrani; burns injuries received, 8/1942; relations with Axis POWs in hospital; treatment for burns; role guarding military prisoners in Port Said area; transfer to Royal Sussex Regt and return to unit; reconnaissance patrols in Enfidaville-Tabourba area, 1943; dock duties in Benghazi; mines course at Benghazi. REEL 4 Continues: opinion of German S mine; attending junior commanders course at Sarafand; inspection of unit by George the Sixth, 1943; problems of keeping clean in desert; investigation of gaps in British minefields with mobile column 'Smithcol', 26/6/1942; linking up with New Zealand troops, 27/6/1942; breakout of encirclement at Minq Quaim, 27/6/1942; unit casualties, 27/6/1942-28/6/1942; opinion of New Zealand troops; move to A Coy as platoon sergeant at El Tahag; brief move to Syria, c11/1943. Recollections of operations as NCO with 4th Bn Essex Regt in Italy, 1943-1944: arrival in Taranto, 11/1943; Christmas celebrations at Avigliano, 25/12/1943. REEL 5 Continues: move into positions at Wadi Patella near Monte Cassino; unit casualties; conditions faced by US troops at Monte Cassino; sight of Allied bombing of Monte Cassino monastery; losses to Indian Punjabi unit; move from Wadi Patella to Wadi Villa; view Germans had from Monte Caira across Liri Valley; effects of spring thaw at Wadi Villa; plan to attack on Monte Cassino; problems of scaling Castle Hill; reasons why planned attack on monastery didn't materialise, 15/3/1944; company casualties, 15/3/1944; German counter attacks on Castle Hill; truce to bring in casualties, 17/3/1944; decorations awarded to unit, 3/1944. REEL 6 Continues: return of unit to Wadi Villa after action at Castle Hill, night 19/3/1944-20/3/1944; condition of unit and removal from 4th Indian Div, after 3/1944; discovery of hanged Italian civilians; use of mules to supply unit; elimination of German observation post at Tezzo c10/1944; award of Mentioned in Despatches; head wound received. Aspects of period as NCO with 4th Bn Essex Regt in Greece, 1944-1945: move from Taranto to Piraeus, 10/12/1944; injury to finger on landing at Piraeus, 10/12/1944; problems of handling ELAS; providing civilians with soup kitchen in Papastados Cigarette Factory. REEL 7 Continues: return to GB via Naples, 2/1945. Period as NCO with 10th Bn, Parachute Regt in GB, 1945: transfer to unit under Alastair Pearson at Beverley; exercises at Piddle Hinton and river crossing on River Hull; grenade accident on Salisbury Plain. Attitude to having served with 4th Bn Essex Regt in Second World War.
     
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  19. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    No takers? I feared not..

    For anyone else researching the 1/4th, I'll post another find:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/medals/albums/72157602521584762

    The Battalion War Diary for Nov '44 and detailed battle
    casualty and decoration lists for (I think) the entire war.

    (Many thanks to the original researcher).
     
  20. gmyles

    gmyles Senior Member

    Hi Charley

    What a great find!

    Was this a one off or were these Battle Casualty Lists made up for each Battalion/Regiment?

    Gus
     

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