End of the Search Engine? - CWGC Search Changes

Discussion in 'War Cemeteries & War Memorial Research' started by Paul Reed, Sep 7, 2009.

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  1. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    Hi
    I don`t know enough about URLs etc to comment but one thing I did notice this afternoon was the new PDF system was displaying casualties from Afghanistan ie Nathan Cuthbertson Para Sunderland Bishopwearmouth Cemetery yet it did not show two lads killed in Northern Ireland..
    Verrieres
     
  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Suggestion for a banner update:

    Geoff's Search Engine. The search engine for WW2 Commonwealth casualties compromised by CWGC. Visit it at Geoff's Search Engine.
     
  3. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    I knew it must have been for security among other things, perhaps they discovered a hacking attempt that caused them to change? Losing even a tiny bit of information for such a widely used database would be a tremendous loss.

    They don't owe anyone anything, from their Terms of Use section,

    Access to the database of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission has been made available to the public on this website. Whilst we make every effort to ensure the accuracy of the information on it, any liability which might arise from the use of it or reliance on it is excluded.

    By using their site or information you are agreeing to these terms.

    The CWGC staff have to worry about running their own site, not the sites of others. It is unfortunate for those that are well made and widely used, but they have a job to do and if they believe their goals can be fulfilled better this way that is completely there decision.
     
  4. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    This is the first time that I have been made aware that links have been made directly to the Commission's website. If there are any formal agreements in place, then perhaps you could let me know. If not, then it would seem to me perfectly reasonable for the organisation to make changes it believes enhances the system.
    This from one of their earlier website designs, so it seems if you say the source is copyright (as I have), it is permitted. Or it was, perhaps they also forgot to tell us the rules had changed.

    This is a bloody laugh, where would the internet be without hyper-links!


    Copyright

    The contents of this web site are copyright The Commonwealth War Graves Commission. Some of the images used on this site are owned and are the copyright of third parties. They are reproduced here by kind permission of their respective owners. You may view the site and download any part(s) of it for personal viewing for private purposes but you are not permitted without our permission to store it (or any part of it) other than for the purposes set out in this paragraph, print out copies except for your own personal viewing for private purposes or reproduce, copy or transmit it (or any part of it) in any other way for any purpose or in any other medium. You are not entitled to alter the content in any way. You are not entitled to make use any resources on this web site, including hypertext links to any part of this site, without making it clear to users that the resource is copyright the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. If in doubt, please contact a representative of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.
     
  5. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    And the current terms and conditions do not mention links, so I presume they don't have any objection. But we are granted 'access'.

    Copyright

    1. Copyright and database rights in all material on this site are the property of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission unless otherwise stated. This material may be reproduced free of charge in any format or medium for personal use or for internal circulation at an educational establishment, provided it is not altered or used in a misleading context and the Commonwealth War Graves Commission is acknowledged as the source of the material.
    2. This permission does not extend to any material on this site which is identified as the copyright of a third party. Authorisation to reproduce this material must be obtained from the copyright holders concerned. If in doubt, please contact a representative of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.



    Terms of Use

    Access to the database of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission has been made available to the public on this website. Whilst we make every effort to ensure the accuracy of the information on it, any liability which might arise from the use of it or reliance on it is excluded.
     
  6. DMcNay

    DMcNay Scotsman

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  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I've put up an update to this on my blog:

    The Scottish Military Research Group: CWGC Search changes - update

    I think it makes my feelings on the matter perfectly clear.

    Cheers for that...I've been wondering what CWGC thoughts were on the matter.

    I will now retract my statement of 'Tosser' and replace it with 'Bell End'.

    This is exactly the sort of stuff that miff's me off so much....All those men, women and children giving their lives and CWGC having a 'It's my train set moment'.

    I hope he can sleep at night...........They'll be charging folk next to access their relatives details.

    Shame on them !
     
  8. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    Cheers for that...I've been wondering what CWGC thoughts were on the matter.

    I will now retract my statement of 'Tosser' and replace it with 'Bell End'.

    This is exactly the sort of stuff that miff's me off so much....All those men, women and children giving their lives and CWGC having a 'It's my train set moment'.

    I hope he can sleep at night...........They'll be charging folk next to access their relatives details.

    Shame on them !

    They haven't taken any information away persay, they did add the PDF feature which is something at least. On Alexa rank alone it seems the CWGC was receiving much more traffic than Geoff was, it isn't that far fetched that they wouldn't know about his site.

    I'm not ragging on Geoff's work by any means and I apologize ahead of time if he is getting that impression, I'm simply looking at this from all perspectives.
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Have you received any Neg reps yet? :unsure:
     
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  10. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    There is no 'far-fetched' in this tale. CWGC knew exactly what was out there and have been made aware many times that their search facility was of little value to historical researchers.

    ...and of course they knew about links to individual records. Can anyone realistically believe that they don't follow relevant threads in GWF, if only to see how projects such as the Fromelles excavations are being followed ?

    CWGC is a typical government organisation that believes it owns the information that it is meant to hold for the rest of us.

    Their new format stinks of Mormons as far as I'm concerned. I'm really expecting a £4 per record download charge very shortly.

    No explanation of IT necessities can disguise the fundamental policy change behind this move to the dark ages and those who wish to do this would perhaps be well advised to bear in mind the sensitivity of the situation here.
     
    Paul Reed likes this.
  11. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    I think the best course of action would be to get in touch with them and see if we are legally able to pull their data for use, perhaps we can create a site similar to Canada at War but for the Commonwealth?

    A bit "out there" but, can we using our own information start a database that is contributed to?
     
  12. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    They haven't taken any information away persay, they did add the PDF feature which is something at least. On Alexa rank alone it seems the CWGC was receiving much more traffic than Geoff was, it isn't that far fetched that they wouldn't know about his site.

    I'm not ragging on Geoff's work by any means and I apologize ahead of time if he is getting that impression, I'm simply looking at this from all perspectives.

    Are you the self-appointed Devils Advocate of this site, or something?
     
  13. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    I think the best course of action would be to get in touch with them and see if we are legally able to pull their data for use, perhaps we can create a site similar to Canada at War but for the Commonwealth?

    A bit "out there" but, can we using our own information start a database that is contributed to?

    You're missing the point. This is a public body funded by tax payers money, including Canadian tax payers money. As such we have the right to demand certain things of it.
     
  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Here Here..Bring on the Revolution brother !

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Where's Za when you need him :unsure:
     
  16. Elven6

    Elven6 Discharged

    Are you the self-appointed Devils Advocate of this site, or something?

    It's good to look at things from all perspectives.

    You're missing the point. This is a public body funded by tax payers money, including Canadian tax payers money. As such we have the right to demand certain things of it.

    I see your point but they are giving you to something, access to the information for free! There terms of use prevents them from being "attacked" in a sense if such things were made clear.
     
  17. englandphil

    englandphil Very Senior Member

    This has been posted on :: CWGC ::

    The key sentence being:

    It is our intention to adopt the improved system, once the technical problem has been resolved. As well as providing a more intuitive system, the changes to the records search facility allow for greater security of our database but regular users may wish to note that one of the likely results of the security upgrade is that external websites will be unable to take advantage of the links to individual casualty details which are currently available


    I wonder who the 'extensive' consultantion was with? Anyone on here?

    Whats the betting that the technical issue with the new format is that they have realised that the pdf's were still available to external websites.....
     
  18. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    I see your point but they are giving you to something, access to the information for free! There terms of use prevents them from being "attacked" in a sense if such things were made clear.

    The issue of the information being free is irrelevant. Their Terms are also irrelevant as they are a publicly funded body, and therefore publicly accountable.

    You are getting close to Trolling, and I'm getting bored with it.
     
  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    It's not free...I pay for it every month in my pay packet, everytime I go shopping, fill my car and bike with fuel, tax them and any other number of taxes I pay etc etc etc as everyone else does on here that live in the UK.
     
    Paul Reed likes this.
  20. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    For goodness sake Elven, they are 'giving' us nothing. They are providing the information that they are required to by their founding charter.

    It is perhaps unfortunate that Canadian schoolboys are not required to visit the graveyards of the first world war as they might then try to look into the slaughter further and even attempt to realise that there are hundreds of thousands of casualties who would otherwise be forgotten were it not for the efforts of individuals.

    A valuable tool is in the process of being removed from these individuals.
     
    Za Rodinu likes this.

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