Dunkirk and the East Surrey Regiment

Discussion in '1940' started by waudy, Sep 1, 2011.

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  1. waudy

    waudy Junior Member

    Yes i agree, the date of death baffles me also,i think maybe a visit to the surrey museum might be helpful also do you agree? I have posted earlier somewhere that his wife would get monies reduced if death was confirmed and not missing is this possible? Would i find service records at National Archives,Thanks for the info, anymore info would be appreciated
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    You can apply for his service records from the link below at a cost of £30. You don't NOK approval as he died more than 25 years ago.

    service records sar form requests

    Museums aren't something I'm familiar with-I'd give them a call first rather than a visit incase they can't help. I don't know about the money side of things so can't comment on that-I'd be very surprised if it had any baring on his date of death.
     
  3. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello waudy,

    It is unusual to have a precise date of death, without a body, unless someone reported seeing him KIA on that date. Without such a report you would usually get a range, for example, 30 May to 2 June 1940 - the date last seen to the date the Battalion landed back in the UK.

    This got me thinking and did a bit of speculative research on the attached: http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/monuments/monuments01.html

    Your grandfather is mentioned in the Roll Of Honour for the East Surrey's and all the details agree the earlier CWGC posting i.e. the 1st Bn, not the 1/6th Bn and d.o.d. 9 June 1940. No surprise there as the details were probably obtained from the CWGC.

    I also ran through the other 1st Bn names on the Dunkirk memorial and noticed that another man is reported as KIA precisely on the 7 June 1940 and four others were killed when the Lancastria was sunk off St Nazaire on the 17 June 1940 - during Operation Ariel. This makes me think that some troops may have been detached for one reason or another, or rather than waiting to go into the 'bag' at Dunkirk made their way west through the German lines in the hope of getting a boat home from a port still in the Allies hands. Some were killed on their way, some were killed on the Lancastria, others may have made it home.

    See the attached for Operation Ariel - http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/searching-someone-military-genealogy/38483-can-anyone-give-me-information-my-great-granduncle-who-died.html

    I wouldn't discount that your grandfather was making his way west when he bumped into Germans... His service records should assist with d.o.d. as may a War Diary covering this date for 'missing' East Surrey's.

    This is not a plug for Andy (Drew5233), but he and others can assist in tracking the applicable War Diary information.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  4. waudy

    waudy Junior Member

    Cheers steve for that,plug or no plug any information is a great help.I have always believed he was at and around the meuse river and the area of Neurport so why he tried to go miles west to get home when Dunkirk and the beaches were in reach is maybe another puzzling thought,When i read "Miracle of Dunkirk" and bits of east surrey reg is mentioned in this, i looked at where they were on june 9th and it seemed it was kicking off "big time"in the west its funny how you mind runs away with you sometimes because,"Beauforce"is mentioned and had this vision that he escaped west and joined them,eventually i think that is where the 2/6 east surrey reg surrendered i:e St Valery
     
  5. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Yes, the 2/6th went in the bag along with most of the 51st (Highland) Division at St Valery. From what I have read the 1/6th spent a lot of time fighting in the same area as the 1st Bn, in Belgium and N France.

    The German advance was so rapid it is not surprising that lots of troops lost touch with their units and/or were blocked from rejoining them, so went west. Others would have attempted to go west rather than go in the bag, especially if detached from their officers/units. The fact that four men from the 1st Bn were on the Lancastria is proof that this happened.

    Good luck with your search!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  7. waudy

    waudy Junior Member

    Thanks for the information drew it is becoming intriguing,service records next i think.I am like a dog with a bone at the moment.
     
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Thanks for the information drew it is becoming intriguing,service records next i think.I am like a dog with a bone at the moment.

    Did you apply for the records? You should have them by now if you did.
     
  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I guess thats a no then ... Shame I got the regiments WW2 history today to.
     
  10. waudy

    waudy Junior Member

    Hi Drew,got your response and it gave me a kick up the back side,cheers,got some info back from Red Cross which is quite interesting,Can you run your eyes over it for me and fill me in as much as you can.Previous conversations were his regiment were back in blighty by the 1st of june 1940,Thanks for your time mate,Oh no service records as yet,long story!:)See attachment.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1050
    Will be in touch soon,cheers mate.
     
  11. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hello waudy,

    I hope this is of assistance to you and Andy... My reading of the letters of Cpl B Nyland is this.

    Your grandfather's unit was in the Rouen area of Northern France on 8 June 1940. He was on sentry duty when his unit was attacked by the Germans. Nyland believes that those not wounded or taken prisoner must have been killed.

    The fact that his unit was in Northern France would indicate that he was in the 1st or 1/6th Battalion; it says 1st on his CWGC Certificate. It also appears that they were adrift i.e. they did not get off at Dunkirk/Bray Dunes on or before the 2 June 1940. There are a few 1st Battalion deaths reported right up to 17 June 1940, which supports this view but not conclusively - as this is the day the Lancastria was sunk.

    I wonder if there is anything about this in the War Diary(s)?

    NB. A couple of the letters are unclear and I can't decipher them, but the two short letters from Cpl Nyland are clear.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  12. waudy

    waudy Junior Member

    Hi steve mac,thanks for the info,got this paperwork last week 15/3/2012,not good with computer and posting pictures at mo,this is the first report i have, and to say the least amazingly gobsmacked that someone remembers him.Still puzzled why they were fighting there, and no body found?Also his name at dunkirk cemetery and why not at a Rouen cemetery.Finding out a bit about Cpl Nyland and getting more info etc etc
     
  13. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Hi steve mac,thanks for the info,got this paperwork last week 15/3/2012,not good with computer and posting pictures at mo,this is the first report i have, and to say the least amazingly gobsmacked that someone remembers him.Still puzzled why they were fighting there, and no body found?Also his name at dunkirk cemetery and why not at a Rouen cemetery.Finding out a bit about Cpl Nyland and getting more info etc etc

    Of the four 1st Battalion men that died around that time - two are on the Dunkirk Memorial, one is buried in the Dunkirk Town Cemetery and the other in The Netherlands - the latter possibly a PoW that died of wounds.

    Your grandfather may (and it is a 'may') have a CWGC grave; he may be an unkown soldier of the East Surrey Regiment or unkown British Soldier.

    We need a clue as to where he may be buried though... Please do not get your hopes up, as it is unlikely that we will trace him. I know, I have a missing Great Grandad from WWI and missing Uncle from WWII.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
    Ken P likes this.
  14. waudy

    waudy Junior Member

    It seems the Battalion was scattered all over France then,but it looks as if he died at Rouen you would think he would be buried there,what do you think? I am not getting my hopes up but to get this information i just find it fascinating,My dad would have loved this site if alive,i just wish the family spoke openly and passed the info down the line,even my dad did not know about this.
     
  15. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    It seems the Battalion was scattered all over France then,but it looks as if he died at Rouen you would think he would be buried there,what do you think? I am not getting my hopes up but to get this information i just find it fascinating,My dad would have loved this site if alive,i just wish the family spoke openly and passed the info down the line,even my dad did not know about this.

    Ha, the number of times we see lines like this "...i just wish the family spoke openly and passed the info down the line...". You wouldn't believe how typical that is. :)

    As for a burial at Rouen - who knows. The British dead washed up at Bray Dunes in 1940 were not all buried locally, in fact they were buried a great distance away. You need to investigate first and try to find a lead.

    As well as the applicable War Diary(s), another thought is 'Missing Person' files at the National Archive - I don't know if this has been mentioned previously. Regiments usually tried to track down their missing soldiers and there maybe something about your grandfather in the applicable War Office file. I don't know if Andy can assist here with a file number or copying service, or if he would refer this to Lee (handle 'Psywar.Org').

    Let's see what Andy (or Lee) has to say when he is back on the forum.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  16. waudy

    waudy Junior Member

    Hi Steve,yeah Drew has told me to get service records which i have not got yet but has given me a lot of help,maybe he or lee can give me some more info,i just thought if he died at Rouen he would be laid to rest there or did they get exhumed and re-interred after the war and if so who done this? Maybe a silly question but i don`t know. Thanks again for the info Steve waudy
     
  17. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I've looked at those Red Cross missing persons enquiries again. The L/Cpl mentioned - Riddington was 2/6th East Surreys. Although they don't seem to have been involved in the same action, the fact that one person was being asked about both of them, suggests that they may well have been serving together.

    Lance Corporal
    Service No:
    6137344
    Date of Death:
    08/06/1940
    Regiment/Service:
    East Surrey Regiment

    2/6th Bn.
    Grave Reference
    Plot 2. Row C. Grave 7.
    Cemetery
    ST. HILAIRE CEMETERY, FREVENT

    Additional Information:

    Son of Charles and Mary Riddington; husband of Eliza H. Riddington, of Bermondsey, London.

    2/6th Battalion seem to have been engaged on the outskirts of Rouen, before the town was abandoned. I wonder if this is a case of a man being seconded from a regular battalion when the 2/6th was formed.
     
  18. waudy

    waudy Junior Member

    Thanks Rich, that is interesting.I always thought he was fighting and died as a rearguard at Dunkirk and i could not fathom out the June 9th death as Drew said before the unit were back in uk by the 1st -2nd now this info i got looks like it was Rouen
     
  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I hate speculating as it normally ends up a waste of time. The 2/6 diary isn't very clear but it looks like the Bn was at Nantes on the 2nd June so without checking further I suspect they were evacuated shortly after through St. Nazaire etc.
     
    Ken P likes this.
  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Just to update this thread thanks to Ken P liking a post and drawing my attention to it.

    2/6 East Surreys were over run on the 7th-8th June defending a line near Aumale. They were working with the 1st Armoured Div Support Groups Anti-Tank Regiment (101st AT Regt) trying to slow the German advance north and give the 51st Highland Division more time. The 2/6 East Surreys were a labour battalion and only equipped with .303 rifles so they didn't stand a chance against the advancing Panzers.
     

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