Douglas Bader enigma

Discussion in 'General' started by David Layne, Nov 8, 2006.

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  1. en830

    en830 Member

    I firmly believe that his mind is playing tricks, I've no doubt that at sometime he may have met Bader, but not in 1942 as he claims. All the evidence that he is giving, i.e the bombing, the shooting down of bombers etc.... points to 1941.

    The trouble is he has convinced himself that it was the Stork Hotel and 1942, and no one is going to tell him any different.
     
  2. WebPilot

    WebPilot Member

    I firmly believe that his mind is playing tricks, I've no doubt that at sometime he may have met Bader, but not in 1942 as he claims. All the evidence that he is giving, i.e the bombing, the shooting down of bombers etc.... points to 1941.

    The trouble is he has convinced himself that it was the Stork Hotel and 1942, and no one is going to tell him any different.



    Hi there.....good work!
     
  3. WebPilot

    WebPilot Member

    I have just added this to the Williams guestbook. I reproduce it here as I expect it will be deleted.

    submitted on January 8, 2007 4:44 AM EST
    Name:The Real WebPilot

    Comments:I have been informed that having been forced to take down your page of puerile insults and risible threats, you are now attributing spurious comments on your guestbook to me, and I see that this is in fact the case.

    Mr Williams, you claim that you should be treated as an honourable veteran, however your behaviour is anything but honourable. You post lies, threats and insults about people and email abuse around the world, is it any wonder that you attract such scorn.

    It is my position that to publicly accuse a dead war hero of collusion with the enemy, based on a complete lack of hard evidence is far from honourable. I would be prepared to debate this with you, and maybe help you find the truth behind this, provided you are prepared to forego your normal abusive and blinkered mindset. We have seen that your story has many confusions regarding time and place and therefore your story cannot be accepted without independent verification.

    I wonder if you will have the moral courage to accept this offer and to leave this entry on your guest book. If you accept, then I will deliver a contact email address to you, but as I have stated elsewhere, I do not leave my email contact on public websites for reasons of internet security.
     
  4. en830

    en830 Member

    He would have found people a lot more amiable, if he had worked with them rather than immediately going on the defensive and becoming abusive, because they shoot down his story.
     
  5. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I have just added this to the Williams guestbook. I reproduce it here as I expect it will be deleted.

    submitted on January 8, 2007 4:44 AM EST
    Name:The Real WebPilot

    Comments:I have been informed that having been forced to take down your page of puerile insults and risible threats, you are now attributing spurious comments on your guestbook to me, and I see that this is in fact the case.

    Mr Williams, you claim that you should be treated as an honourable veteran, however your behaviour is anything but honourable. You post lies, threats and insults about people and email abuse around the world, is it any wonder that you attract such scorn.

    It is my position that to publicly accuse a dead war hero of collusion with the enemy, based on a complete lack of hard evidence is far from honourable. I would be prepared to debate this with you, and maybe help you find the truth behind this, provided you are prepared to forego your normal abusive and blinkered mindset. We have seen that your story has many confusions regarding time and place and therefore your story cannot be accepted without independent verification.

    I wonder if you will have the moral courage to accept this offer and to leave this entry on your guest book. If you accept, then I will deliver a contact email address to you, but as I have stated elsewhere, I do not leave my email contact on public websites for reasons of internet security.
    I see he got your note B):
    THE DISCREDITED AVIATION FORUM
     
  6. WebPilot

    WebPilot Member

    I see he got your note B):
    THE DISCREDITED AVIATION FORUM


    He did, and the reply is much as expected. Again, here it is as it will probably vanish when he realised what a fool this makes him look (NB, it's gone already!):

    Royal Navy Medic
    Email :postmaster@royalnavymedic1945.com
    CountryAustralia
    Comments:
    (1)I now can see where you are coming from, and I now believe you are also a member of the Colditz Society who are all, like you, a bunch of one eyed narrow minded bigots who have only one aim in life and that is to visit Colditz castle each year as a platoon of wannabes and who all need to get a REAL life. (2)You have now finally come out and made a concrete accusation that I have on my website, publicly accused Douglas Bader of collusion with the enemy - Well, what can I expect from a cowardly nonentity like you to try in some way to discredit me, even by outrageous lies and innuendo. I NOW PUBLICY CHALLENGE YOU AND YOUR COHERTS TO SHOW EVIDENCE OF WHEN, WHERE AND HOW IN MY STORY I HAVE DONE AS YOU CLAIM. I have much more respect than you will ever have for Douglas Bader and it is mean minded people such as you that are demeaning your hero, and not honest reputable people such as me. (6) As far as your offer of "help" in solving my Enigma is concerned let me tell you that you are the last person in the world that I would ever entrust with even one page of my complex and truthful account of being involved with Douglas Bader in 1942. I and the readers of this guestbook will now await the details of your accusations against me with intense anticipation. Kenneth Williams

    Interestly it also appears that an "email" of support that he posted (castigating this forum) is apparently a forgery made up by Kenneth Williams - unsurprising as he has a habit of making sock puppets appear suddenly to agree with him.

    Dear Sir

    I have been following your story with great interest; and I find it incredible that so many have questioned your accounts. After reading about Bader and your meeting in 1942, it got me so interested that I undertook a search for more information. I was aghast to see various historic forums contained reference to your research and not one of them had the guts to stand up and be counted.

    Just recently I see that ww2talk.com has also sunk into the mire, is there no end to this ridicule.
    This site was a great area to discuss all things to do with WW2 and I have at times exchanged memories with people who like me, served King and country for a greater cause. But even this website has degraded itself to the same level as the aviation forum you mention on your website.

    Anyhow, I wish you luck with you research and hope that in time you find the answers to the questions that you pose, they are out there somewhere I am sure.


    As a footnote, my son bought me a computer the Christmas before last, it has revolutionised my life as the piece of shrapnel still imbedded in my left leg gives me grief and I find it hard to get around.
    I received it not long after landing in Normandy with the 8th Armoured Brigade, those damned 88’s and German Panzers decimated our poorly armoured Sherman’s and Cromwell’s and we lost a lot of good chaps.

    Still that’s another story, all I can say is that on that day I was glad of the medics that were to hand. Like you I did my bit.


    Kind regards


    Mike (Formerly of the Nottinghamshire Yeomanry, June 1944)

    mikewallsin(at)Hotmail.com January 8th 2007
     
  7. Monty's Double

    Monty's Double Junior Member

    Hmm, Mikewallsin...... Ken Williams they do appear to have several letters in common.....

    WebPilot, I doubt you'll ever get this odious little man to admit that he's either mistaken (likely) or to own up to deliberately misleading people to "big-up" his rather insignificant life story. Some of the content that he's published on his site in the last few weeks demonstrates that he's unworthy of the privilege of pedalling this nonsense to the rest of the web.
     
  8. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    He did, and the reply is much as expected. Again, here it is as it will probably vanish when he realised what a fool this makes him look (NB, it's gone already!):


    Thanks to the wonders of multi-tabbed browsing I have some of the 'vanishing text' for you ;) If you don't mind it being represented here?:


    [​IMG]

    AVIATION FORUM and RAF HISTORICAL SOCIETY MEMBER, "WEB-PILOT" MUST BE EXPELLED FORTHWITH


    I have repeatedly warned the few Aviation Forum Members who exhibit a degree of respectabilty that this "rogue" member is not only a danger to himself and the now teetering on the brink Forum but to the validity of the British concept of fair play, freedom of speech and expression

    This indivudial has been and still is, incessantly posting denigrating messages to my Website Guest Book that includes sneering and insulting messages to posters who support my story.That, is the last straw in my mind and should now be sufficient reason for the Forum owners to take immediate action. Failure to take this action will reinforce mine and others feelings that the owners of the Aviation Forum endorse this deplorable type of acitivity.

    WEB-PILOT has always posted anonymously (but easily recognizable) and has had his posts, in accordance with my policy on this type of "grafitti" instantly deleted. He is now providing some, but not complete information about himself in his lates posts and therefore I must leave them intact as they basically confirm to my requirements.

    I believe that the London press could find an interesting story to tell about the senseless bullying and denigration of the reputation of a WWII Veteran with a most usual TRUE story to tell and the lengths they are going to in attempts to supress this story. I shall shortly be investigating the feelings of the print media in this reagard.

    There is also a very interesting behavioral pattern emerging here that is worthy of some study and is that the overwhelming majority of comments I recieve are favourable and from senders who always provide their full names and e-mail details or addresses.

    Predictably, ALL the comment that I recieve attempting to debunk my story are from faceless, anonymous and cowardly members of the community.

    I will attach a letter of support below this message for your evaluation. This Veteran of World War is happy for me to reproduce his whole e-mail uncut.

    8th January 2007


    Oooh you are evil! :cool:
    Cheers,
    Adam.

    Edit: reappeared now.
     
  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Did have the 'anagram veteran' bit "posted in full" in an earlier form before the ww2talk references were added, Screens have updated now so I've lost the original. hohum
     
  10. Kyt

    Kyt Very Senior Member

    I'm starting to wonder why some of us are engaging with a delusional individual, who actually seems to feed off others' criticisms.

    As the saying goes all publicity is good publicity - and we sure are providing him with that. Why not just suffocate the story by denying it the oxygen of publicity.

    If it had been a published book, most serious academics would have ignored it.
     
  11. WebPilot

    WebPilot Member

    Hmm, Mikewallsin...... Ken Williams they do appear to have several letters in common.....

    WebPilot, I doubt you'll ever get this odious little man to admit that he's either mistaken (likely) or to own up to deliberately misleading people to "big-up" his rather insignificant life story. Some of the content that he's published on his site in the last few weeks demonstrates that he's unworthy of the privilege of pedalling this nonsense to the rest of the web.

    You're absolutely right, there is no chance whatsoever, however I think in making him so clearly a laughing stock at least it will be obvious to all that his story on Bader has no foundations in fact.
     
  12. WebPilot

    WebPilot Member

    Thanks to the wonders of multi-tabbed browsing I have some of the 'vanishing text' for you ;) If you don't mind it being represented here?:



    Oooh you are evil! :cool:
    Cheers,
    Adam.

    Edit: reappeared now.


    Not a problem. Much of what he attributed to me was in fact either made up by himself or anonymous contributions that he assumed were from me. He put some much more venomous content up previously, but his ISP made him remove it as it was beyond the boundary of reasonable comment and actually contained threats of violence - about as worrying as being savaged by a dead sheep, obviously, but unacceptable nonetheless. And all this from an "honourable veteran"!
     
  13. WebPilot

    WebPilot Member

    I'm starting to wonder why some of us are engaging with a delusional individual, who actually seems to feed off others' criticisms.

    As the saying goes all publicity is good publicity - and we sure are providing him with that. Why not just suffocate the story by denying it the oxygen of publicity.

    If it had been a published book, most serious academics would have ignored it.


    This is a fair point, and one that I have debated previously. My view is that such is the nature of the interweb, these sort of things are not denied the oxygen of publicity in the way that they were previously - for example that story of the aircraft carrier trying to make a lighthouse move over has been bouncing round the net for years, though it's been denied time and time again, as somone else finds it and recirculates it. The story gets linked to wikipedia, other sites link it from there and it gathers ever more momentum. I think it needs to be nipped in the bud, and made a clear and absolute laughing stock.
     
  14. WebPilot

    WebPilot Member

    Having been caught out (again), Mr Williams desperately tries to make it look as if it was nothing to do with him. I though that this sadly deluded person had reached rock bottom, but apparently he continues to dig deeper...

    "The following is the text of an E-mail sent to me by Mr Ian.Le Sewer posing as a veteran of the Normany landings and offering support for my Bader Enigma. Mr.Le Sewer whilst posing as a WW II Veteran claimed to have been injured in the Normandy landing and I gave him my sympathy for his battle caused injury......"
     
  15. en830

    en830 Member

    Ah so now it's attributed to me and by bastardising my Surname thinks that he getting one over on me. Will he never learn? Ironically going to school in the UK, toughened me up when it comes to nicknames, this being one that I suffered.

    In one of his emails to me he assumed, for some reason, that I was a Catholic, where he got this from I have no idea. I partake of no organised religion, but respect those who find the need to do so.

    The crux of the matter is that he is unwilling to accept that his timelines do not match up to the events that he claims to have witnessed. He will not accept anything from anyone who was, in his words, not there. While I wish this story would go away, it won’t until such time that he accepts that he is wrong, and stops posting libelous comments.

    Can anyone pin point a U Boat commander with the same name as his account, I have several good reference books on U Boats and there is a superb website on the same subject, none of which give a U Boat commander by the same name.
     
  16. WebPilot

    WebPilot Member

    The second piece I am trying to establish is when the first US troops landed in mainland UK, I know that the first to set foot in Britain, did so in Northern Ireland on 26 January 1942, but I am pretty sure that in February 1942, the streets and bars of Liverpool wouldn’t have been seething with US troops as he claims.



    Far be it from me to suggest that all websites are authoritative, however this here is a very useful site:
    World War II Troop Ships Home Page

    Checking the crossings database on that site (which may or may not be either exhaustive or correct) shows the first two sailings from New York to Ireland reaching their destination on 26 Jan as you've noted.

    This site: UNITED STATES ARMY IN WORLD WAR II: UNITED STATES ARMY FORCES IN NORTHERN IRELAND CHRONOLOGY references the build up of US Forces in N Ireland through the early part of 1942.

    On 26 Jan the strength of the arriving contingent was 4,058 men - by 15 Feb American strength in Northern Ireland is reported as 211 officers, 42 nurses (officers), 1 warrant officer, 3,650 enlisted men, and 12 male civilians, so there clearly had not been a major move of men from Northern Ireland onto Mainland UK by that point. By 19 Feb, the transport of men from the US to the UK really begins to gather steam but these transports don't arrive in Northern Ireland until the beginning of March. There are no recorded sailings to Liverpool at this point, only to NI and it's not until 16 May when the Queen Mary arrives on the Clyde from New York.

    On 3 Mar 1942 the first increment of personnel, 24 officers and 239 enlisted men, are reported to have arrived at Euston Station, London, for the formal establishment of Headquarters, United States Army Forces in British Isles.

    By 31 May the American strength in Northern Ireland is reported as 32,202 (1,626 officers, 102 nurses, 16 warrant officers, and 30,458 enlisted men).

    I think this shows that without doubt that in February 1942 US uniforms could only have been a rarity in Liverpool. Maybe slightly less rare than the sight of Douglas Bader could have been, but nonetheless it proves that the recollections as recounted on the Williams website :Cartangry:are likely to be unreliable as to time and place.
     
  17. WebPilot

    WebPilot Member

    KW says that he went to Iceland from Liverpool on the HMTT JOHANN VAN OLDENBARNAVELT, arriving early August 1943. There are two ships sailing from Liverpool to Reykjavik at that time: the Samaria and the Empress of Australia, in convoy with a corvette, arriving on Aug 1st. KW says as far as he knows his ship wasn't in convoy but was accompanied by a corvette so this would indicate the event he is relating did take place, but not quite as he recalls.

    Again, the chronology of the KW site appears to be very unreliable as to detail - which one would expect from memories of 60 years ago.
     
  18. WebPilot

    WebPilot Member

    Ah so now it's attributed to me and by bastardising my Surname thinks that he getting one over on me. Will he never learn? Ironically going to school in the UK, toughened me up when it comes to nicknames, this being one that I suffered.



    KW does seem rather attached to schoolboy insults and making up things about others in a rather puerile fashion. It's quite amusing to watch , in a rather pathetic way.

    The crux of the matter is that he is unwilling to accept that his timelines do not match up to the events that he claims to have witnessed. He will not accept anything from anyone who was, in his words, not there. While I wish this story would go away, it won’t until such time that he accepts that he is wrong, and stops posting libelous comments.



    He was given an offer in good faith to try to establish the truth, but that it seems is not his goal.
     
  19. en830

    en830 Member

    While I would like to take the credit for Mike's email unfortunately it wasn't me.
     
  20. Monty's Double

    Monty's Double Junior Member

    Having been caught out (again), Mr Williams desperately tries to make it look as if it was nothing to do with him. I though that this sadly deluded person had reached rock bottom, but apparently he continues to dig deeper...

    "The following is the text of an E-mail sent to me by Mr Ian.Le Sewer posing as a veteran of the Normany landings and offering support for my Bader Enigma. Mr.Le Sewer whilst posing as a WW II Veteran claimed to have been injured in the Normandy landing and I gave him my sympathy for his battle caused injury......"

    Well once again, ken Williams has been shown up as knowingly posting lies on his website and now he's blackening the good name of EN830 and inciting people to attack him. If, like me, you find this behaviour unacceptable then please tell his webspace provider abuse@corp.web.com

    Williams has removed the link to view his guestbook, however, it can be found here http://svcs.myregisteredsite.com/svcs/dcc.jsp?tpage=http://www.royalnavymedic1945.com/index.html&dsrc=gb:277130938601191538/DS_TLXGuestbook_1095208832078.xml&partner=inldspear&pcon=yes&xsl=dccfile:gb.xsl&obpp=blDe2trOXurEzlraytTKxObuXM5c7lrm6sTiZGxobGhi&ret_url=http://www.royalnavymedic1945.com/index.html&page=1
     
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