Douglas Bader enigma

I would be interested in reading the forums response to this.


http://royalnavymedic1945.com/id36.html

 

:sign_rofl:

Someone who is so sure that they are right, that everyone else has to be wrong.

Even if Bader was repatriated, could you see him agreeing to be part of some conspiracy rather than jumping straight back into a Spitfire? (He flew Spitfires and Meteors after the war so he wasn't too badly injured). Would the Germans have sent him back because he was too much trouble - why not just shoot him and say he attempted to escape?

And the weakness of many such conspiracy theories, like the theories about the faked moon landings, or swapping the Titanic with the Olympic, is the sheer number of people that would have had to keep quiet about it, or to support the lie - in this case all the Colditz inmates for a start.

If this geezer did meet Bader in Liverpool, the most likely theory is that after 60-odd years he is mixed up as to the date - maybe it was 1941 and he saw the GIs on another occasion. And did Bader actually need help putting his legs on?

Adrian

 

Er, before I say anything can we be sure that he's not going to go nuts with us- he's already had a go at another forum!!

For all Bader's bravery, flying skills and even as an inspiration to disabled people like me, one thing that people did find aggravating was his sense of own -worth and was quite a publicity seeker. He doesn't seem the type who would remain in shadows.

As to his legs - generally he was passionately independent but during is fighting days, his batman did sometimes assist him when he was in a rush. In POW camp (if he was still there! ) his legs were taken off him for the night after his fourth escape attempt.

 

The section on Alec Ross, Bader's batman in Colditz, is well corroborated; even more of the story appeared in the Ross' Daily Telegraph obituary.

I have to say, that for all Bader's good qualities, his alleged treatment of Ross does him no favours whatever - apparently he never bothered to contact him after the war.

 

Maybe the hard faced abrasive attitude was what helped him to overcome the trauma of his accident and his double amputation. I have read two autobiographies of him and he comes across a man sure of himself and his beliefs and opinion. While one could be judgemental in his treatment of Ross, I think people miss the influence he had over Leigh Mallory. I read of his relationship with him and get more than an impression that Bader was calling the shots and Leigh Mallory was the figurehead.

I find it sad that these conspiracies have a bad habit of coming out long after the subject concerned has long passed on, or friends of the subject like wise. I think in a lot of cases it is just raking up some ashes chucking in a bit of doubt and the old conspiracy theory or the "but why didn't this/or why did they do this and not mention it" creeps into the fore. This gets people thinking and we're away. Another source of advertising and revenue for the author and his publishers. In the media, the story hasn't got to hold water. Gossip and gutter mongering sell the papers.

As I was told once and I treat in as fact " Every lie has an element of truth in it". Most people are up for gossip and if not involved in spreading it will at least listen in to it. If the Bader story had initialled been given to those in the know instead of the media, it might of died the death instead of stirring things up. Media after all are out to sell papers not concern themselves with people's feelings and the truth of the material they publish.

 

Er, before I say anything can we be sure that he's not going to go nuts with us- he's already had a go at another forum!!

For all Bader's bravery, flying skills and even as an inspiration to disabled people like me, one thing that people did find aggravating was his sense of own -worth and was quite a publicity seeker. He doesn't seem the type who would remain in shadows.

As to his legs - generally he was passionately independent but during is fighting days, his batman did sometimes assist him when he was in a rush. In POW camp (if he was still there! ) his legs were taken off him for the night after his fourth escape attempt.


The so-called Bader Enigma is a complete load of old tosh - there is not a single word of truth in it. Unfortunately the author is completely unwilling to discuss it in rational terms and resorts to abuse of anyone daring to suggest he is wrong. File under "wacko stories" along with alien abductions and there being another civilisation living in a big cave under the North Pole!

 

Never been a big Bader fan. He always brings to mind the Big Wing and LM battle with Dowding. Thank God for Park and Dowding.

 

You should read his page and see all the nasty stuff he said about me, personally!

This is a guy who lives in a nice little house, right next to reality! :elkgrin:

 

You should read his page and see all the nasty stuff he said about me, personally!

This is a guy who lives in a nice little house, right next to reality! :elkgrin:

Apparently he was reported for the abuse he was placing about people on his website and was instructed to remove it all on pain of the entire website being suspended! He's still trying to pretend he was justified but the page he's put up in place of the ranting is pretty lame and shows that he knows that his credibility is pretty much zero.

 

Apparently he was reported for the abuse he was placing about people on his website and was instructed to remove it all on pain of the entire website being suspended! He's still trying to pretend he was justified but the page he's put up in place of the ranting is pretty lame and shows that he knows that his credibility is pretty much zero.

I was very annoyed at his personal abuse, which of course, was his intention in posting it in the first place. I'll have to take a look to see if his material on me is gone...I didn't want to look at it more than once, for obvious reasons. I actually did not complain, as I felt that after a lifetime of overreacting to taunting and teasing, maybe it's better to "mokusatsu" such statements.

 

I checked his web page, and didn't see my name, handle, or web page listed. I might have to check again, but it looks like he obeyed orders.

Sometimes the best thing to do is absolutely nothing...the mills of the gods and all that.

He sent me a nasty e-mail, which I have stored somewhere, and I answered it by saying, "I am sitting in the smallest room of the house, and have your note in front of me. Soon it will be all behind me."

He was furious, of course, and put it on his page.

 

But it's not just Bader, there was also this priceless incident with Churchill.
The devastating bombing of Liverpool was sufficient cause for Winston Churchill to visit the city in April 1941 to raise morale. Great excitement buzzed around the Adelphi as we had been informed that “Winnie” was coming to visit the hotel and would be having lunch with his entourage and local dignitaries in the English Grill.

I was told to stand in the hotel foyer before he and the guests arrived, and as happened to me on “Andania”, was not given any instructions as to what my function was to be. I took up my position thinking that I would at least have a clearer view of Churchill than the thousands of people thronged outside the hotel waiting in anticipation to see the great man arrive.

Suddenly there was a wave of cheering as the motorcade pulled into the hotel driveway. I could see a blur of colour as everyone waved his or her Union Jacks. “Winnie” then slowly walked up the steps and turning to the crowd, raised his quaint blocked bowler hat high into the air, waved, and gave his familiar “V” for victory sign. The crowd went wild and cheered themselves hoarse. After a few minutes he slowly turned and commenced the walk up the stairs to the hotel entrance and foyer followed by a huge entourage of high-ranking navy, army and air force officers together with a mass of local dignitaries.

As he walked up the steps and got closer to me I noticed that he was limping slightly. I didn’t give it a second thought as I was taking note of his funny little short double breasted overcoat, blocked bowler hat and walking stick and of course, the huge fat cigar.

He seemed to deliberately catch my eye and veered off his set course to the restaurant, and was without doubt heading straight toward me. “My God!” I thought “What have I done and what is he going to say to me, and why me?”

Suddenly there we were, face to face and I could feel the adrenalin pumping madly through my arteries. He looked at me and smiled, then put his hand on my shoulder for support, leaned forward and said very quietly to me. “Son, I’ve got a nail in my shoe and it’s giving me hell, do you think you can do something about it?”

I stood there completely stunned for a moment or two then stammered “Yes! Yes!, of course sir, I’ll see what I can do.”

Still leaning on my shoulder he bent down slightly and pulled the shoe from his foot and handed it to me. I took the shoe and noticed that the proceedings had come to a complete standstill.

I was aware of all these gold braided symbols of authority and power looking at me and wondering what was going to happen next. It occurred to me as I almost ran down the steps to the empty bottle storage area that I could run and keep the shoe as a memento of a great man. I could have, had I been a German agent, put some Curare onto the nail and effectively made an attempt to assassinate Britain’s wartime hero and legend. However, I eventually picked up a small Schweppes soda water bottle and used it to hammer down the rather prominent and sharp offending nail.

I made sure that it had been flattened and that it was now smooth. I then came back up the stairs to see Churchill leaning on his walking stick with one shoe on talking to a group of dignitaries as though nothing untoward had happened.

I thought again, “My God!” The whole conduct of the war has come to a halt and I have the power, albeit a black shoe, to keep the war in suspension or let it start again.”

With a flushed face I approached the group, excused myself and told “Winnie” that I had fixed his shoe. Once more putting his hand on my shoulder, he slipped the shoe back on again, pressed it down to the floor as though testing it, smiled broadly and put his hand in his pocket and drew out a half crown that he pressed into my hand saying, “Thank you son, that’s much better.” He then turned and continued his journey to the restaurant with his large group of guests and the war restarted as though nothing had happened.

The whole episode can be found here
The Blitz Begins, Dead Greyhounds and Winston Churchill's Shoe

By the way, our hero at the time was one of 56 bell-boys and porters at the Adelphi Hotel in Liverpool. The Adelphi's empty bottle storage area doubled as the hotel's cobbler shop.

 

I have been exchanging emails with this character for about a week now. He is just as abusive there as he is on his website.

He has now asked not to email him anymore; I think I am wearing him down.

If you do some cross checking of the timelines for the Bader Enigma and what was going on in Liverpool at the time, holes bigger than those suffered by the Titanic during its meeting with the iceberg start to appear.

Do a google search for the dates of the Liverpool Blitz, and compare to his claim in picture gallery number one quoted here:-
The late Sir Douglas Bader (centre), who I met under the most extraordinary circumstance during the Blitz of Liverpool –UK


The second piece I am trying to establish is when the first US troops landed in mainland UK, I know that the first to set foot in Britain, did so in Northern Ireland on 26 January 1942, but I am pretty sure that in February 1942, the streets and bars of Liverpool wouldn’t have been seething with US troops as he claims.

I would also like to establish the identity of the German bomber he witnessed being shot down over Liverpool, which in his words fell onto the Mersey riverflats
From then on the raids diminished and the only other dramatic incident I can remember was on an afternoon break from the hotel when I was out in the square. There was a very loud roaring of aircraft engines. I looked up and saw a twin-engine German bomber flying very low with a thick plume of black oily smoke pouring from one of its engines. It was closely followed by a Spitfire in hot pursuit with its machine guns and canons stuttering away at the hapless bomber. There was a loud cheer from the crowds who had stopped to witness this dramatic event, and then both planes disappeared over the rooftops and into the distance. I stood there for a few moments waiting for the sound of a terrible explosion as the bomber crashed but it had continued its path to oblivion and finally came down in a ball of flame on the river flats with no survivors.

One further error in the rest of his story:-
In 1943, when he applied to serve on Landing Craft, he gives the reason that it was because of seeing the men being shipped back from the Battles raging in Europe at the time. I asked him to confirm which battles these would be in 1943, after Dieppe and before Normandy.

He replied that it could have been worded better, fair enough I thought, but then he makes the remark that Landing craft were used to bring back the wounded from Dunkirk and Normandy and that he was witness to this at Chatham. When I pointed out that Dunkirk was 1940 and he didn't join the RN until 1942, how could he be witness to this, I then got a load of abuse back.

After following the link from Pete G's thread, I found another strange entry. His story takes him from the Adelphi in 1941 to the Stork in February 1942. In his account of life at the Adelphi on the Dead Grey Hounds page, he claims that the place was full of American servicemen, this was April 1941 !!!! 7-8 months before the Americans officially entered the war, so why would there be so many American servicemen packing the clubs, hotels and bars in Liverpool at this time?

 

I have been exchanging emails with this character for about a week now. He is just as abusive there as he is on his website.

He has now asked not to email him anymore; I think I am wearing him down.



...the most dangerous thing known to man

The only message I have for this nutter is that I will not tolerate him harassing me or my family in any way.

 

By all accounts, some people are going to have egg on their faces.

THE DISCREDITED AVIATION FORUM

This website becomes stranger and stranger. I have been informed today that official complaints have been made to his space provider, I think they'll have more chance if they appealed to his carers

 

By all accounts, some people are going to have egg on their faces.

THE DISCREDITED AVIATION FORUM

This website becomes stranger and stranger. I have been informed today that official complaints have been made to his space provider, I think they'll have more chance if they appealed to his carers

OMG - a clear example that dementia medication should be provided free on the NHS!!

 

I've now estblished on another forum that by all accounts the last Luftwaffe bomber to come down over Merseyside did so on 04 May 1941 - Heinkel He111 Wk No 3975 of 2/KG53, which collided with the balloon barrage and crashed into the Mersey at 12.00 Midnight, Lt K Baller, Uffz L Palubicki, Uffz K Fliechmann, Uffz. G Stolper and Gefr. E. Donner were all lost.

So there's another hole in his story about seeing a Luftwaffe bomber being shot down over Liverpool in 1942.

 

John Colville, Churchill's Private Secretary, accompanied him for his tour of Liverpool and Merseyside. Churchill and his party travelled in the P.M.'s special train. He records in his diary Saturday, September 27th [1941]
We reached Liverpool. The P.M. [was dressed] in his curious semi-naval garb ... The docks at Liverpool are a scene of great devastation. Many acres have been entirely cleared of buildings by the bombs. The P.M. visited C. in C., Western Approaches, at his headquarters, where Lord Derby, also awaited him, and then the party returned to the train for lunch. ... We reached Chequers before 6.00 [P.M.].
I have found a photo of Churchill's visit to Liverpool. It shows him as Colville describes "in his curious semi-naval garb" - so no bowler hat and clearly no lunch or dinner at a hotel.

It follows that this cannot be right eitherI was taking note of his funny little short double breasted overcoat, blocked bowler hat and walking stick and of course, the huge fat cigar.

 

He was also in Liverpool on 25 April 1941, this sort of ties in with KW story