Divisional LAA Regiments

Hi,

Can anyone tell me when the WE of British Infantry and Armoured Divisions began to include Divisional LAA Regiments. I have some evidence that suggests this occurred in autumn 1941 in North Africa, but was this just a local decision?

Regards

Tom

 

Routledge in history of the AA states that under the direction of the BAA 8th Army Brigadier J N Slater had enough LAA regiment for each of the divisions to have an LAA regiment under command in the autumn of 1941.


The RA Orbat latre 1941 -42 in Farndale's Years of Defeat only shows a handful of LAA Regiments as within formations. Two regiments were mixed LAA Atk regiments

I do not think that the British had enough LAA regiments to assign one to each division until the conversion of 20 infantry battalions to LAA Regiments in 1942

 

Sheldrake,

Very interesting - so it looks like this was a lesson learned in Libya, Greece and Crete!

If I find specifics in the ME GHQ files I'll post it here.

Cheers

Tom

 

38th (Irish) Infantry Brigade (from March 1943

6th Battalion, The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (until August 1944)
2nd Battalion, The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers (from August 1944)
1st Battalion, The Royal Irish Fusiliers (Princess Victoria's)
2nd Battalion, The London Irish Rifles (Territorial Army)
Support units[edit]
56th Reconnaissance Regiment, Royal Armoured Corps
1st Battalion, Princess Louise's Kensington Regiment (Machine gun battalion)
Royal Artillery
17th Field Regiment
132nd Field Regiment (Welsh)
138th (City of London) Field Regiment
64th (Queen's Own Royal Glasgow Yeomanry) Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery
49th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment (until November 1944)
Royal Engineers
214th Field Company
237th Field Company
256th Field Company
281st Field Park Company
Royal Army Medical Corps
11th Field Ambulance
152nd Field Ambulance
217th Field Ambulance
47th Field Ambulance

This was the format of 38 Brigade of 78 Div

Notice my mob, the 49th LAA

Ron

 

At the time of the 2nd Battle of El Alamein (23 October 1942), there were three British Infantry Divisions and three British Armoured Divisions in the Western Desert. LAA support was thus:

1. 44th Infantry Division - 99th LAA Regt - 03.02.1942 to 25.03.1942; and 30th LAA Regt - 04.04.1942 to 23.11.1942 (Division disbanded on 26 November 1942);

2. 50th Infantry Division - 34th LAA Regt - 18.10.1942 to 06.11.1942; and 25th LAA Regt - 16.12.1942 to 30.11.1944 (Division reduced to training cadre on 1 December 1944);

3. 51st Infantry Division - 40th LAA Regt - 01.05.1942 to 31.08.1945;

4. 1st Armoured Division - 42nd LAA Regt - 26.09.1942 to 05.10.1944;

5. 7th Armoured Division - 15th LAA Regt - 02.08.1942 to 31.08.1945; and

6. 10th Armoured Division - 53rd LAA Regt - September to November 1942.

Nothing earlier than 3 February 1942 in the Western Desert.

You may find this link useful as a resource: http://www.ra39-45.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/laaidx/index.html

Best,

Steve.

 

My late father's unit, 7th Battalion, The Loyal Regiment (North Lancashire) was raised at Preston in July 1940 as an infantry battalion.

In October 1941, the battalion was given notice that it would be converted to an LAA regiment. The conversion officially took place on November 15, 1941, when 7th Loyals became 92nd (Loyals) LAA Regiment, RA.

I have a document somewhere listing 22 infantry battalions - including 7th Loyals - which were switched to LAA duties in the winter of 1941.

In January 1942, 92nd LAA became the divisional AA unit of 3rd British Infantry Division and remained with the division until June 1945. I have no information as to how LAA units were allocated to particular divisions and it would be interesting to find out.

92nd LAA men wore a red rose among the insignia on their sleeves to mark their origin as a Lancashire unit.

 

Corps also had designated LAA Regts.

Like Tom (Tmac), my Dad's unit (7th Battalion, Lincolnshire Regiment) were originally raised as Infantry in July 1940 at Tollerton Hall, Nottinghamshire.

In November 1941, 7 Lincolns were advised that they were to become an LAA regiment and this officially took place on 1 December 1941. 7 Lincolns became 102 (7 Lincolns) LAA Regiment, RA.

They were assigned to 11 Corps and eventually 1 Corps for the campaign in North West Europe and 31 AA Brigade after the German Surrender. The batteries were placed under command where ever they were required. 6 Airborne Division, 49 British Infantry Division, 5 Canadian Armoured Division, 6 Lines of Communication, 1 Canadian Corps, 2 Canadian Corps, 2 Canadian Division, 9 Agra amongst them.

They also kept a link to their original formation, by wearing the red X on a blue circle on their shoulder (see my Avatar).

Tom sent me a copy of that list some years ago, but I can't find it either. I know 89 LAA were 49 Division's designated LAA Regt and they were originally 11 Buffs (Royal East Kents).

 

Obviously Joslen's Official History ORBATS is the authoritative source!

LAA regts:

Gds Armd Div - 94 LAA wef 1/6/42
1 Armd Div - 42 LAA wef 26/9/42
2 Armd Div - none
6 Armd Div - 51 LAA wef 1/6/42
7 Armd Div - 15 LAA wef 2/8/42
8 Armd Div - 56 LAA wef 23/7/42
9 Armd Div - 54 LAA wef 12/6/42
10 Armd Div - 53 LAA wef 2/9/42
11 Armd Div - 58 LAA wef 1/6/42
42 Armd Div - 93 LAA wef 1/6/42
79 Armd Div - 119 LAA wef 10/9/42
1 Inf Div - 90 LAA wef 27/1/42
56 Inf Div - 100 LAA wef 3/2/42
2 Inf Div - 89 LAA wef 24/1/42
3 Inf Div - 92 LAA wef 24/3/42
4 Inf Div - 91 LAA wef 26/1/42
5 Inf Div - 18 LAA wef 5/2/42
6 Inf Div - 69 LAA/ATk wef 6/8/43
15 Inf Div - 119 LAA wef 18/5/43
36 Inf Div - 122 LAA/ATk wef 1/9/44
43 Inf Div - 110LAA wef 23/3/42
44 Inf Div - 99 LAA wef 3/2/42
46 Inf Div - 115 LAA wef 24/2/42
49 Inf Div - 118 LAA wef 7/5/42
50 Inf Div - 34 LAA wef 18/10/42
51 Inf Div - 40 LAA wef 1/5/42
52 Inf Div - 108 LAA wef 12/3/42
53 Inf Div - 116 LAA wef 3/4/42
54 Inf Div - 199 LAA wef 21/4/42
55 Inf Div - 103 LAA wef 4/2/42
59 Inf Div - 68 LAA wef 19/4/43
61 Inf Div - 103 LAA wef 22/2/43
78 Inf Div - 49 LAA wef 16/7/42
1 Abn Div - LAA bty wef 2/7/42
6 Abn Div - LAA bty wef 26/5/43

ATk regts are over a wider date date range. There's obviously a typo between 55 and 61 Divs. Some divs had up to three different regts, others had just their original one.

 

I think you are getting a bit confused and will confuse the vast majority of people who have little or no understand of miltary command relationships (you can always identify them because they talk about 'attached'). According to Joslen:
210 Ind Inf Bde (Home) formed by No 10 Inf Trg Gp 10/10/40. Redesignated 38 (Irish) Inf Bde 13/1/42.

Units under command at or after 13/1/42:
2 LIR (30/11/41 - 31/8/45
1 R Ir Fus 12/12/41 - 31/8/45
6 Innisks 15/1/42 - 5/8/44
2 Innisks 26/7/44 - 31/8/45

The bde was variously under command of 1 Inf Div, 6 Armd Div, 'Y' Div, 46 Inf Div & 78 Inf Div. It never had any other arms or service units under command, this was normal apart from those bdes that were briefly brigade groups. It was of course supported by many and varied units of different arms and services under command of the division that also commanded the bde. 'In support of' is a formal military relationship but is not the same as 'under command'.

49 LAA was under comd 78 Inf Div 16/7/42 - 6/11/44. During this period the divisional 'arms' units included 56 Recce Regt, 17, 132, & 138 Fd Regts, 64 ATk Regt, 1 Kensingtons MG Bn (redesignated Sp Bn 16/6/43), 214, 237 & 256 Fd Coys, 281 Fd Pk Coy, 21 Br Pl. I assume one of the Fd Regts and one of the Fd Coys would have normally been affiliated 'in support' of 38 Bde, and perhaps a bty from 64 ATk and 49 LAA Regts.

78 Div Bdes were:
1 Inf Bde (Gds) 22/6/42 - 15/3/43
11 Inf Bde 22/6/42 - 31/8/45
26 Inf Bde 22/6/42 - 31/8/45
38 (Irish) Bde 15/3/43 - 31/8/45

Other 'arms' units would have been 'in support' from time to time, including AGRAs.

 

Mapshooter

I wasn't aware that I was being more confused than normal when I posted the above list of units under command of 38 (Irish) Inf. Brigade. If, however, my posting offends your susceptibilities, I offer my apologies to yourself and the great Lt.Col.Joslen.

I doubt, however, that you will get any apologies from other forum members who you accuse of "talking about attached" (see above)

Finally, you might want to replace the word "understand" with " understanding" as this typo might further confuse the forum

Ron

 

Gents,

Many thanks for the interest and all the information. Fantastic as usual.

One thing about Joslen though is that I think 7th Armoured Division was assigned a LAA Regt for Crusader, and that goes for 4th Indian and 2 NZ Divs as well (not sure about the SA Divs will chase that up) so it looks like the ME were about 6 months ahead of practice in the UK which is interesting.

Regards

Tom

 

Gents,

As promised, here are some details of the formation of Divisional Lt AA Regts in the Middle East in the autumn of 1941. I found it in WO169/950 - HQ AA GHQ MEF 1941:

"Appendix 6A to Oct 41 WD
COMMANDER – IN – CHIEF’s DESPATCH
(4 Jul. – 31 Oct.41.)
Notes by B.R.A. (AA & CD)

A.A. & C.D.

2. ALLOTTMENT OF EQUIPMENT AND UNITS

(2) The release of additional Lt.AA equipment from U.K. enabled forward planning for the provision of Divisional Lt.AA Regiments (all on a 36 gun basis at present) to be implemented. This planning included the re-organisation into Div.Lt.AA.Regts on British W.E’s of the undermentioned Dominion Units.

1 Aust Hy.AA.Regt.
1 SA Mixed AA Regt.
2 SA Lt.AA.Regt.

By 31 Oct there should be

Five Div.Lt.AA Regts for Eighth Army (including Dominion Lt.AA.Regiments).
Two H.Q. Aust Lt.AA.Regiments and one battery (with a prospect of the two Regiments being completed before the end of the year) as Div.Lt.AA.Regts for Aust Corps.

(3) For the first time, a scale of provision of AA units comparable to the Order of Battle has been provided for a Field Force in M.E.F. (Eighth Army). This has been made possible by the increase in equipments and the re-organisation referred to at 2(2), the arrival of additional British AA units in M.E.F. and by taking certain risks in thinning out the AA Defences in Base Areas and Defended Ports.

By 31 Oct there should be available for Eighth Army (less TOBRUK Garrison)

One HQ AA Bde.
Three Hy.AA.Regts. (nine Btys)
Three Lt.AA.Regts. (Corps Troops) (eight Btys)
Two AA.S/L Btys (less two Tps)
Five Div.Lt.AA.Regts. (fifteen Btys)

At TOBRUK there will be

One HQ AA Bde.
One Hy.AA.Regt. (three Btys)
One Lt.AA.Regt (three Btys)
Two Tps., AA.S/L Bty."

Interesting remark about the scale of AA Units for a Field Force.

Regards

Tom

 

Joselyn's big book of Orbats shows the WE of the 1941 Infantry Division as including a LAA Regiment. I am not sure when the 1941 estanlisment was implemented but, it could not have been until there were enough LAA regiments to assign them - hence the 1942 conversion programme.

Organic LAA only made sense for a formation deployed in a field force, as in the Middle East. For much of the war protecting Vital points in the UK from low level air attack was a higher priority than fielding a balanced field force. Even after their formation, the new "divisional LAA Regiments" were in action as part of the AA defences long before the rest of their division saw a German . The German Fw190 fighter bomber tip and run raids on coastal towns resulted in the deployment of a lot of LAA to coastal towns. E.g. 92 (Loyals) LAA Regt formed in Nov 1941 from 7th Loyals was part of the 3rd Infantry division and earmarked as an assult Division from spring 1943. However the LAA still became involved in ADGB tasks in June/ July 1943 in Kent while the rest of the Division was in Scotland

 

I don't know if this document is any help here, but the date may be significant. It lays out the establishment of a mobile LAA regiment - the type that became a component of Army divisions.

The document is dated March 19, 1941. Could it have been part of the move towards the conversion of the 22 infantry regiments into mobile LAA regiments later that year?

 

As I pointed in my previous post, only the infantry battalions were under command of the brigade. In particular regiments of a divisional artillery were never placed under bde command (unless the bde was assigned to some totally independent task, and ignoring the brief 'brigade group' nonsense in N Africa), they were always under the CRA's command.

When I say confused I am being polite. Perhaps it was just a matter of confused presentation that gave the impression that all the listed units were all under the same command relationship. As any fule kno this was not the case.

 

Re the conversions of infantry to LAA, these were the regts numbered 107 - 130 LAA, only 7 of these appear in the listed I posted at #8. Of the remainder 6 served in AA Divisions in UK, I haven't looked for the remaining 9. Furthermore 8 of the 22 regts (converted during 1941/2) were previously searchlight regts having been converted from infantry somewhat earlier, 6 of these were the regts in AA Divs.

Until the official addition of an LAA regt to each division, which was probably a War Office Policy Decision made in late 1941, all AA and SL regts were part of an AA Bde. The one exception seems to have been 101 LAA/ATk regt in 1940, which appears to have been part of 1 Armd Div. Of course the Army or Theatre commander could always decide to allot AA regts to a corps or divisions for a period or purpose, eg 54 LAA Regt was sent to Norway in 1940. This temporary allotment of a regt from an AA Bde is not the same as a WO policy decision to provide a LAA regt per divisional artillery.

 

Here's that list of the 22 infantry battalions that were converted to mobile LAA regiments in the winter of 1941 / 42.

 

Digressing slightly, 101 LAA/ATk did not become 101 LAA Regt nor did 102 LAA/Atk become 102 LAA Regt. They became Anti-Tank Regts, 76 & 102 respectively.

 

A very interesting thread!

tmac: Thanks for posting!
1. Your copies of the WE in post 14 differ in various details from mine (Kew, WO 24 ...). Would you tell me your source, please?
2. Where is the table in post 17 from?

Thank you!

 

I was given both the mobile LAA war establishment document and the list of converted infantry battalions by the Royal Artillery Museum in 1992 when I was researching the history of 92nd LAA.