Dieppe Raid, Operation Jubilee

Jonathon
Perhaps popularized is better but it is I believe attributed to Lloyd George here. Quoted from the online Biography of David Lloyd George found here. http://www.biographyonline.net/politicians/uk/lloyd-george.html

I might add, the one good thing did come from Dieppe was that it was the beginning of the end for the dim witted second sons of aristocracy and their sycophantic cronies; by the end of 1942, rank for the most was held by virtue of, merit not birth. IMHO
Matt

 

Put to us in a lecture - 'the myth of British command WW1' Often said the British general officer and field officer was a dim-witted fool from the aristocracy. The Staff college opened in 1802 and from the 1850s a two year course (passed Psc) for all future commanders. The sons of aristocracy went out with purchase of commissions late 19th century when the idea of joining a 'fashionable regiment' stopped. When the general staff were confronted with WW1 most commanders had come from an army used to colonial policing and bush wars. Many certainly made mistakes but they learned fast in an industrial war. Questioning of tactics - what were the Germans doing? Fire and manoeuvre. flanking attacks or were they also bogged down in trench warfare? 87 general officers were KIA - dangerous place miles behind the lines! The British army officer corp suffered (pro rata) a high casualty rate - the notion that officers had to lead ensured a higher rate (pro rata) than the German officer corp and the rank and file. There were generals of note, there were also generals like Haking -'Butcher Haking'. These generals when in later years had funerals attended in some cases by huge numbers of people. Some historians talk of the 'bitterness of the poor fools who fought the war' the same who joined Yeomanry and TA units post war the same who formed regimental associations etc. Few historians have tried the poor uneducated tipping the forelock masses sent off to war by the aristocracy - hardly a clever move as the 'aristocracy' was decimated. Put a young lad in a second lieutenants uniform leading from the front - next! 1942 onward rank held by merit ? Alan Brooke, Montgomery, Alexander, de Guingand and most if not all commanders products of the Staff College as students and instructors of the pre war army - aristocrats? Yes it is safe to say Montgomery would not have had the wealth to join a cavalry regiment he still made one star (brigadier) rank in peacetime. Some still believe that chinless wonders survive in the army - 30 Jocks with a boss who has no clue - 5 minutes at best.


An exercise in trumpet blowing (below) but it does give backgrounds: Off topic? Maybe but another view is sometimes required bad soldiering or bad historians? Said before - not as though British generals did not know how, it was often with what. LLoyd George on Haig, 'from the toe of his polished boots to the top of his cap a thoroughly professional soldier'


http://archive.org/stream/generalsofbritis00dodduoft#page/n3/mode/2up

 

Perhaps I have misinterpreted something but I thought Lloyd George settled his personal score with Haig with the damning phrase "brilliant to the top of his army boots".

 

Not true. The move to scientific methods of officer selection from a wider pool of talent started much earlier

http://www.moderntimesworkplace.com/archives/ericsess/sessvol1/Murrayp45.opd.pdf

 

Indeed Lloyd George changed his views of Haig the other generals and the admirals who he claimed collectively misled him, he was scathing of the Tory party and suggested that only the Liberals had the answers. Like many a politician very selective and much from memory. He was on occasion right but some of his claims may or may not stand scrutiny. Did Lloyd George not suggest a unified command at one point under Nivelle, Haig had reservations but once commited carried out the orders - is it not also true that Lloyds Georges memory is at time at odds with events. Off to help a friend download and set up Linux Mint 15 on a laptop given to them.

 

Search here:

http://archive.org/stream/warmemoirsvolume035284mbp#page/n7/mode/2up

 

In 1997, certificates were created in Paris for those who had taken part in the Dieppe Raid. As my dad died in 1992, I sent away for his. I haven't been able to get it framed because I'm just not sure I want it on the wall.

Dad was proud to have done what was asked of him that day, being part of No.4 Commando, but I'm not sure what he'd think of a certificate having his name on. I'm proud he took part and having something with his name on is nice to have.

When I think of Dieppe I think of another Commando Bairn whose dad didn't return, in fact, he has no burial place. I think of all those other brave men, of various nationalities, who had little or no chance at all. I feel sad when I think of Dieppe.

The certificate may well be in its envelope for a while yet.

 

Nice post.
A reminder to me that I have focused exclusively on the Canadian aspects of the raid. My apologies.
The Commandoes, Royal Navy and RAF also lost heavily that day.
52 fatal casualties among the 1,075 Commandoes who participated, 75 from the RN and 62 in the air. Also 3 U.S. Rangers.

 

Almost to the letter what mine said as well when we visited in June 2012.

 

All of the academic debates, theories, justifications and mythology all seem to fade to insignificance once you stand on that bloody beach for the first time.

 

The French-Canadian view:

http://canadianmilitaryhistory.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/4e-Richard-Dieppe-the-creation-of-a-myth.pdf

 

Hi

I'm a new member and until now my main military interest has been WW1 naval history - which lead me to the Zeebrugge Raid of 1918.

This thread has left me wanting to know more; however my knowledge of the events at Dieppe is very limited. The thread provides a tremendous amount of detailed information and analysis; but as a novice I am finding it difficult to fully appreciate what is being discussed.

Could members suggest texts which I could use as a starting point?

Regards

4Bn

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-allies-second-front-in-world-war-ii-why-were-canadian-troops-sacrificed-at-dieppe/32403

Another rebuttal to the official story line. Arguing that the planned military failure was actually a successful operation in that it achieved the political objectives set for Jubilee.

 

I'd start with the Canaisan archive mateiral of wartime reports. . http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/rep-rap/cmhqr-rqgmc-eng.asp

Look at Colonel Stacey's preliminary report written within a month of the action.
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/rep-rap/doc/cmhq/cmhq083.pdf

and the other lenghty statements.

The report produced after Op Ovelrord is significant as well
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/rep-rap/doc/cmhq/cmhq128.pdf

One useful set of documents are the conference papers from the Assault Landings Conference held by ETOUSA in May -June 1943- nine months after Dieppe. These originally secret papers include a briefing on the Dieppe Raid and the lessons learned. by Hughes Hallett and Roberts and remarks by Haydon and the Combined Operations staff. The briefings explain to to the US Army, new to the ETO the British thinking about the problem of a cross channel assault in the light of the expereince of Dieppe. If the "official Line" about Op Jubilee was wrong and everything which followed was a cover-up it would have been both stupid and highly risky to train the Allies in tactics based on would have been known to be false lessons.
http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getfile/collection/p4013coll8/id/273/filename/262.pdf

 

Hi Sheldrake

Thanks for the tips - I've have somewhere to start from now

Regards

4Bn

 

With four days to go to the 72nd anniversary, here is an aspect of the raid I never knew. These four showed considerable resolve.

Operations in France
M.I.9 - Partners in Evasion.

Four young French Canadians, all of whom had volunteered for the army soon after Canada entered the war in 1939, came to serve with M.I.9 by way of the raid on Dieppe by Allied forces in August 1942. The raid resulted in more than 3,000 Canadian casualties. Almost 1,000 of them were subsequently taken prisoner of war (POW) by the Germans.

Conrad LaFleur, Robert Vanier, Guy Joly and Lucien Dumais were part of this group of POWs. They all managed to escape from the Germans and get back to England. Incredibly, all four men then decided to return to France as secret agents with M.I.9, helping others to escape.

The secret service career of one of these unusual Dieppe Veterans Lucien Dumais – is a good example of just what these people were doing behind enemy lines and the risks they took to help others. Lucien Dumais of Montreal was a tough, 38-year-old sergeant of the Fusiliers Mont-Royal when he was captured by the Germans at Dieppe. After escaping and returning to England, he underwent four months of combat training with the British First Army in North Africa. Upon his return to England, dissatisfied with the routine of Army camp life, he volunteered for service with M.I.9. And so his path crossed with that of another Canadian whose craving for action and adventure led him to join the secret service.

Tall, dark-haired Raymond LaBrosse was 18 when he first went overseas in 1940 as a signalman with the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals. The British secret service agencies were chronically short of good wireless radio operators, especially those fluent in French. LaBrosse was approached by M.I.9 and subsequently became their first Canadian agent. His first mission into German-occupied France, however, ended abruptly when the network was infiltrated by the Gestapo and LaBrosse was forced to flee the country. He was eager to get back to France and renew his efforts.

Dumais later wrote a book about his experience: The Man Who Went Back


More here:

http://www.canadashistory.ca/Magazine/Online-Extension/Articles/Behind-Enemy-Lines

 

Roll Call List
C Company
Essex Scottish

 

This is more than questionable : the results could have been better/the losses lower,but generally one could be satisfied .

 

LJ,
Not following your point. Are you stating the Dieppe Raid to be a success?

 

Well,if one is looking at the aim of Jubilee,and at the results, I don't think one can say that Jubilee was a disaster .The losses were higher than expected,but,losses can not be used to determine if an operation was a success/failure .