Did the BEF use the Carden Loyd Carrier?

JK

Well now we’ve clarified what you meant rather than what you said we could answer your question. But if you’d rather we didn’t, fine.

Rich - it is likely the Carrier, Tracked, Personnel Carrying in which role it was first used from 1940. It had the advantage over the Cavalry Carrier in that it could carry eight men. It really came into its own after c 1942 as a gun tractor and in the end more than 26,000 were built

It was introduced in 1940 so some may have been with the BEF - the photo certainly suggests so, though I haven’t come across any other references, apart from a Tank Encyclopedia page with a photo claiming to be a BEF Loyd Carrier gun tower in Belgium in 1940

 

The WE for a Tank Battalion, both the April 1938 and March 1940 issues, refer to 'carriers, tracked, personnel carrying', latterly shortened to 'carrier, tracked'. I think this was the Loyd, or at least a member of the family. As noted it was to carry personnel, in the Tank Bn being relief crews.

Gary​

 

Given that the Loyd was not demonstrated to the army until late 1939 this is to say the least unlikely . You still appear to be confused between the Carden Loyd and the Loyd - two different machines which whilst sharing a similar suspension were mechanically very different

 

The Carden Loyd couldn’t possibly be described as a personnel carrier as it could only carry two at a time (unless with the tracked trailer?) The most likely other candidate to be a tracked personnel carrier is the Cavalry Carrier. However only 50 were made and the role they were intended for was carrying an infantry section so unlikely to be on a tank battalion’s strength.

 

Tyne and Wear Museum have a photo showing 9 Carden Loyds at the Elswick Works with no machine gun mount and empty bins to the rear. These could probably have carried four men including the driver

 

Coming back to this topic, with some trepidation, less I be thought of as permanently befuddled.

So the original question was regarding the Carden Loyd carrier and whether this was used in action by the BEF. For those of us not familiar with what proved to be interwar weapons and vehicles (which includes me), as has been noted in the preceding posts, this was a physically small vehicle with very little potential as a troop carrier, and no one seems to think it possible it was part of the BEF's kit. Picture taken from Wikimedia of an example at Bovington, fitted as an MG carrier.

I don't know if James is persevering with the thread, but as has been pointed out he may simply have gotten the name wrong. Certainly when I hear Loyd carrier (prefixed, suffixed or whatever), I tend to think of this.

That is the particular vehicle I was thinking of when I posted rather late last night. There is a vehicle on the April 1938 WE for an Army Tank Battalion titled, 'carrier, tracked, personnel carrying', and on the superseding March 1940 WE a vehicle titled simply 'carrier, tracked'. The latter table includes an organization table, that indicates the two carriers on each Tank Company HQ were crewed by two men, and carried a further seven (all drivers, IC, as relief personnel for tanks and transport). That is the Loyd vehicle I was referring to in my above post, not the diminutive Carden Loyd.

As to when the Carrier, Tracked, Personnel Carrying, which has already been identified as the Loyd most likely to have been in use with the BEF by VW above, actually got to units, I cannot pretend to know. A year on it is specifically identified on the April 1941 WE for a Tank Battalion, in the same role of carrying relief drivers, and now also some ammunition.

Certainly, the thread that has already pointed out on BEF vehicles does include photos of a number of vehicles that would appear to be very much in the realm of the Carrier, TCP, and nowhere near a Carden Loyd. Post 329 and 332 both look to show a 'Loyd' carrier, in the latter the vehicle side on in the bottom left hand corner looks a dead ringer. It was a while longer before the Loyd carrier became the familiar towing vehicle for the 6-pdr anti-tank gun, which I think is its most familiar usage.

Gary

 

I've been looking at the photograph again. It is clearly BEF with the white recognition square and the CS8 Office to the right also indicates that this can't be a late-war photo.


It has a Calais look about it, but I can't pin the gasometer in any other photos. I've looked all through my copy Base Ordnance diaries and find no mention of the arrival of Loyd Carriers. Unfortunately all the very specific instructions relating to the white recognition squares are dated November 1939 but clearly a decision had been taken to apply it here, perhaps because it had an unfamiliar silhouette. I wonder if it could be related to HQ 30th Infantry Brigade ? We need a larger copy of this photo. There was originally talk of two photos but both look the same to me ? Is there a second in existence ?

 

That looks like one of the later versions of the Vickers-Carden-Loyd Artillery Tractor

 

Which also looks like an artillery tractor.

 

Given that the bulk of the BEF's heavy artillery was evacuated post Dunkirk could this therefore be further south?

 

I would suggest that the BEF's "Carden Loyd" carriers were in fact Vickers-Carden-Loyd Artillery Tractors

 

What I'm referring to Owen is that Jamie Hunt referred to a second image and then appeared to post a copy of the first one. I wondered if there really was another photo of 'the same vehicle'

 

Next question then. If the vehicles highlighted on the other thread are actually Dragon artillery tractors, was the later Loyd carrier derived directly from this, hence the superficial resemblance of the two? The profile of the two vehicles looks to be very similar to my eye at least. The vehicles not being Loyd carriers proper but looking remarkably like them would also probably explain why Rich can't find any Loyds as having gone to France. Is it known how many Dragons were in use by the BEF during the campaign? I had a quick look last night for some pics of the Dragon, but couldn't find too many, though I see that Dinky Toys look made a model in the 1960s!

Gary

 

Wrongly identified as Dragons but Vicker Carden Lloyd artillery tractors. The Loyd Carrier was not directly derived from it but was as I said intended to utilise as many already available Fordson components as possible allied to a Carden Loyd suspension.

Can I have details of the Dinky toy? I have a collection of every 1960s Dinky army vehicle but don't have a dragon

 

Vivian Graham Loyd joined with Carden to form the Carden Loyd company which was taken over by Vickers. After Carden died Loyd left Vickers and formed a new company Vivian Loyd's. He then designed the Loyd carrier which used Fordson components and modified Carden Loyd suspension. Initially the Loyd carrier was built by Vivian Loyd's but most of the estimated 26,000 production was carried out by other companies including Ford. Although superficially similar to the Universal Carrier etc the internals were different

 

This is a very interesting thread folks, and in an effort to increase my very limited knowledge of tracked vehicles I hope the attached photo may help determine (for me at least) the sort of Carden Loyd carrier being discussed here (photo from "The Encyclopedia of French Tanks and Armoured Vehicles 1914 - 1940" by Francois Vauvillier).

Please note, not posting this as a "light the blue touch paper moment", and will take all brickbats, put-downs, and general scoffing that may come my way with good grace, always.

The photo shows such a diminutive thing, unless of course bonce Francais is as big as a 40lb pumpkin. And I would guess trailer not required re this thread either.

Kind regards, always,

Jim.

 

It should be noted that the VA D50 model of the Vickers Carden Loyd ArtilleryTractor was used as a prototype for the Universal, Bren, Mortar etc line of carriers. Confusing isn't it?