Did friendly fire kill Guy Gibson?

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Peter Clare, Oct 17, 2006.

  1. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    The following article is taken from the UK newspaper 'Daily Mirror' Reporter Rod Chaytor. 17 October 2006.

    Dambuster Guy Gibson may have been shot down by friendly fire in a prank that went wrong, a book claims.
    The wartime hero's death was covered up by an embarrassed government, says historian Derek Brammer.
    Gibson - who led the 1943 raid on the Ruhr dams died when his twin-engine Mosquito fighter-bomber crashed into a hillside.
    For years it was assumed he had made a pilot error while escorting Lancaster bombers over Germany.
    But Mr Brammer spoke to a veteran who thinks he downed Gibson.
    He said: "Gibson was a prankster. One of his favourite tricks was to dive at a plane to check the gunner was awake. On this occasion it seems the gunner was awake and upon seeing a two-engined plane assumed it was German and started shooting."
    The veteran reported he had fired at a twin-engine and reported a possible kill. That was recorded in the log but a few weeks later his commanding officer ordered him forget all about it.
    "I believe that plane was piloted by Gibson. It would explain why it was seen falling in flames and why Gibson never reported any engine trouble.
    "He was a national hero and it would have been a PR disaster to admit he was shot down by his own side.
    "So the men were told to forget about it and the government claimed he died as a result of engine failure."
    Mr Brammer, from Lincoln, makes the claims in his book Thundering Through the Clean Air.
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I'm sure there was a documentary recently on Bader falling into captivity from friendly fire as well?
     
  3. 52nd Airborne

    52nd Airborne Green Jacket Brat

    It's an interesting theory that's going to get everyone talking!!!!

    Gibson - who led the 1943 raid on the Ruhr dams died when his twin-engine Mosquito fighter-bomber crashed into a hillside.


    It was definitely not an hillside! The crash site was a flat piece of agricultural land on the outskirts of Steenbergen, which is now an industrial estate.
    View attachment 697 View attachment 698

    Gibson & Warwick's graves at Steenbergen.
    View attachment 699
     
  4. Cpl Rootes

    Cpl Rootes Senior Member

    very interesting thanks Peter
     
  5. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Interesting theory, considering the bombers were up high and Guy was hedgehopping home.
    And crashing into a hillside? View attachment 701 Yeah, that's a big hill.
     
  6. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Kitty - what is the source of that photo and what does it show?
     
  7. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Publishers and authors always try to dig up some lurid rumour that will sell their books. We have had the lot. When the Germans invaded Britain. So many poppycock stories all to sell a book.
    Sapper
     
  8. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    Guy Gibson was also believed to have been the victim of plane sabotage. It was rumoured in a book that his plane had been tampered with. It had a pre-flight checked and was passed. However when the debris was checked over apparently certain pipes were found to have been loose and had come off. I think it is like Sapper says it rakes up a bit of gossip and gets the drama merchants/ conspiracy in on it.

    It beggars the question, why was the investigation kept quiet - morale perhaps? The only way they recognised the body of Guy Gibson was the laundry mark in one of his socks! The loss of one of the top bombers aces was kept very quiet and the loss and the investigation were not given much coverage - why? The genuine reason might be straight forward, but if it sounds odd, unusual or doesn't satisfy curiousity or is slow in coming out the conspiracy lobby, come out of the woodwork. Keep anything under wraps and people will think the worse. The truth when out might be innocuous but the sheer action of keeping it secret makes the outsider treat it with scepticism.
     
  9. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    I'm sure there was a documentary recently on Bader falling into captivity from friendly fire as well?
    Apparently a Canadian shot him down, but it was all hushed up. It seems now it is a possibility that lurid events are coming to light. The truth will out? If Bader was shot down by one of his own, it gets one thinking what other discrepancies are to come to light or will die untold with those who witnessed them.
     
  10. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Kitty - what is the source of that photo and what does it show?

    The photo shows the field in which the Mosquito came down. The source? I nicked it from the files of our local paper. And they still haven't noticed 18 months later. :rolleyes:

    As to why they crashed? My own theory from reading his biographies etc makes me think that Guy was just so damned desperate to get back to flying. The poor sap nigh on had a nervous breakdown in desperation to get back up there. So they finally let him, but because he was so eager he went against his own training and beliefs and went up in an unfamiliar plane.
    Consequently whilst on the way back with basically a novice navigator neither of them knew the precise procedure for swapping fuel tanks and probably turned off the fuel by mistake. The Mosquito started to crash and they couldn't recover in time as neither knew what to do. Just a tragedy.
     
  11. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Publishers and authors always try to dig up some lurid rumour that will sell their books. We have had the lot. When the Germans invaded Britain. So many poppycock stories all to sell a book.
    Sapper

    Hi Sapper,

    Have missed your input.
     
  12. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    The photo shows the field in which the Mosquito came down. The source? I nicked it from the files of our local paper. And they still haven't noticed 18 months later. :rolleyes:

    Thanks - is it a wartime/post-war image then? Nice find!
     
  13. 52nd Airborne

    52nd Airborne Green Jacket Brat

    Thanks - is it a wartime/post-war image then? Nice find!

    I have seen the photo in a book, but for the life of me I can't remember which! I believe it was taken after the war.

    I'm now off to check my library!
     
  14. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Thanks - is it a wartime/post-war image then? Nice find!

    No idea mate. I found the picture, idly turned it over and saw Crash site of Guy Gibson written on the back, tucked it in my book and took it home with me.
    But by the look of it I'd say late 40's early 50's?
     
  15. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Thanks to you both for that additional information.
     
  16. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    The crash site at the Graaf Hendrikpolder,Steenbergen was said to be adjacent to a sugar factory.The crop in the field shown in the photograph is sugar beet.Sugar beet lifting normally starts from mid October to January in the UK as I suspect it would in Holland.However this photograph, I feel, is a post war photograph.From the autumn of 1944,the Dutch,short of food and fuel were starving and I would have thought this crop would have been lifted early or show the signs of unauthorised liftings.There is also, no signs of crash disturbance in the field.

    Whatever was the reason for the loss of Gibson's Mosquito,the facts are that after been screened from operations after the Dams Raid,Gibson after a series of other duties,notably prestige PR in the US and selection for a new career in politics, lobbied both Arthur Harris and Ralph Cochrane for a returned to operations.

    Both W/C Gibson and his navigator S/L Warwick had very limited operational experience of the Mosquito.S/L Warwick was a late replacement for a sick but experienced Mosquito navigator. Moreover,Gibson had not completed even a basic conversion course on Mosquitos.More important was that the fatal operation that Gibson was to undertake was that of Master Bomber for the raid on Monchengladbach/Rheydt and unknown to Cochrane,Gibson had not attended the manatory conversion PPF Mosquito Unit Course at RAF Warboys as Cochrane had stipulated.

    Flying low on the a straight return leg to clear the Dutch coast was Gibson's declared intention against official briefing that the minimum height of 10.000ft should be maintained on a zig zag course south into France and then a course set for England.Given that Dutch observers reported the the aircraft was on fire before crashing,there would be little time to clear the aircraft safely at low level.The Mosquito cockpit floor entry /exit hatch is quite tight and a rapid exit would be only accomplished by an experience crew on the type.Additionally,flying low on a straight return leg would attract enemy flak whose batteries would have been forwarned about the presence of returning hostile aircraft.
     
  17. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Locals witnessed a glow in the cockpit. To this day no-one knows if this was fire caused by an AA hit, or if it was a torch being held by Warwick in an attempt to find the correct fuel valves in order to correct a mistake in switching tanks.
    All i can say is that Guy was just so desperate to get back in the air that he disregarded his own training and went ahead flying a dangerous mission in a plane he had never been in before. His own judgement was clouded by desperation. :(
     
  18. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    Those who serve with W/CMR Gibson said he was a troubled character, and I believe with respect that he only felt at ease when he was on a mission or flying. He had a troubled personal life, that might have gone some way to explaining his brash manner with his subordinates. While respect his wishes to get back in the air, if he mislead Cochrane head of 5 group, he was not only putting his own neck on the line needlessly but also S/Ldr Warwick's as well.
     
  19. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    No idea mate. I found the picture, idly turned it over and saw Crash site of Guy Gibson written on the back, tucked it in my book and took it home with me.
    But by the look of it I'd say late 40's early 50's?
    I've got a feeling I might be wrong but it is one of the photos taken by the government group that excavated the sight and all the other crash sites on Dutch soil, and were the ones who turned up the sock with W/Cr Gibson name on it and bits of aircraft debris. I am not sure but I think I heard it was taken in the fifties 55?
     
  20. 52nd Airborne

    52nd Airborne Green Jacket Brat

    Using the excellent thread started by Von Poop.
    Have a look at this, Ref: Crash Site picture details.

    Gibson Crash site photo
     

Share This Page