Did any parachute troops drop near Pegasus bridge on D-Day?

I am having an debate with my girlfriends Aunty as I know her Dad was at Pegasus bridge reunions. I found his name on a list of people aboard horsa glider no.4. She claims he did not land in a glider but his name is clearly there and as far as I know there were only gliders used. He was a Royal Engineer so he must of came in on glider with his kit. I cant find anything about the 6th parachuting in. He did not take Pegasus bridge he took Ranville bridge which was later named Horsa Bridge. Could he have been in the 6th and parachuted in? I dont beleive so, anybody with better knowledge have any idea?

 

Yes of course there were paras. They dropped as reinforcements to Major Howards glider force, they were certainly needed as German resistance was increasing all the time. Further glider reinforcements came in at about nine pm at two landing zones, Ranville and St Aubin.

Jim

 

What I am trying to figure out is if Thomas Robert Brown of the 6th airborne is the one included in the list:

Glider No.4 A Horsa glider towed by a Halifax tug piloted by Flying Officer Clapperton. All aboard, unless otherwise noted, were members of No.22 Platoon, designated No.4 Platoon for the duration of the Coup-de-Main Raid, of "D" Company, the 2nd Battalion The Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry.


Lance-Sergeant Brown (249th Field Company)

My girlfriends Grandfather was in the RE. He was at Ranville bridge and when I looked into the history of glider 4 it took Ranville bridge. However his daughter claims he parachuted into Ranville. Could this just be coincidence there were two Browns.

Thanks,

Paul

 

The important ponit I feel to rmemeber is that Major Howard's party were a 'coup de main' to seize the bridge whilst the 7th Parachute Battlaion were to follow on as the main garrison......that is until the seaborne forces linked up.....

 

Hi donohue,

It looks like you are on the right track, but you won't know for sure until you get confirmation from his service records which I believe you have applied for (as mentioned in another thread).

Each of the 3 brigades of the 6th Airborne division had their own RE units. Engineers with the 5th and 3rd Brigades did indeed parachute in on D-Day, whereas those with the Airlanding Brigade came in on glider. Those engineers who were with the coup-de-main force all came from the 249th (Airborne) Field Company, RE which was part of 6th Airlanding Brigade.

Hope that helps.

 

donohue100 - my dad was in the Para's and dropped at D Day, but not with his usual battalion who were not due to drop there. He and his best friend volunteered and I assume therefore were attached to another unit. He dropped at or near Caen as far as I can make out.

 

Shell, reading over the other threads on WW2Talk concerning your Father I don't think it be an exaggeration to say he had an eventful war.

Anything more you have on his participation in D-Day would be of great interest. Someone better informed than me would be able to confirm if there were any Paras who dropped both on D-Day and at Arnhem. I can't help but think you would find very few examples.

Cheers ...

 

Hey,
I research information about the 249th Field Company RE, and I think I can help you to determinate why L/Sgt Brown dropped in parachute before join Pegasus Bridge. Just before the D Day, 30 May, because the weight of the gliders is too heavy, Major Howard decided to cut down the load on each glider by one man from each platoon, as well as one Sapper from each glider (The Pegasus Diaries by Major Howard). May be, L/Sgt Brown could be one of this men.
Cordialy,
Xavier from Paris in France (that's why my english is so bad...sorry)

 

Here's the nominal roll for the Coup de Main party.

http://www.pegasusarchive.org/normandy/repCoupDeMain.htm

Captain Neilson would have been in charge of the group of sappers destined for the bridges by glider. Below him in rank was Lieutenant Bence and Lance-Sergeant Brown in No. 4 glider that was suppose to land at Horsa bridge but instead went astray and came down near a bridge far away on the River Dives. I have no idea, however, if Brown was cut from the participants at the last moment - I always assumed the nominal roll was correct.

Regards ...

Sorry for all the edits ... :mellow:

 

If this gentleman was taken off the Horsa prior to launch from RAF Tarrant Rushton. How did he get to an airfield from which the parachute chalks departed from in time to drop on Operation Tonga?

 

And would he have been para-qualified?
I believe there was a school of thought that agents were more likely to injure themselves doing practice drops than making their first jump the operational one, but I can't see that applying to a heavily-laden sapper.
It also seems unlikely that they would leave behind a sergeant purely to reduce weight. It could simply be that family memories have been swayed by 70 years of para-centric coverage.

 

Xavier,

Hello and welcome to the Forum.

Regards
Tom

 

Sadly Tich Raynor passed away recently and I'm not sure if there is anyone left that was on No. 4 Glider. Neil Barber has a good section in his book on the overloading problem with quotes from a number of men. The impression I get was that all the Sappers were retained and it was decided that one man from each Ox n' Buck platoon would be cut. According to glider pilot Jim Wallwork:

"We could not make the distance at what would be a much-accelerated rate of sink, nor could we land a Horsa so grossly overloaded in such a confined space at a speed which would be well over 100mph. So we decided to cut down what was not vital. Should we drop a sapper? No, all Engineers were vital to dismantle the bridge demolition charges. Every man was already carrying 20lb extra ammunition and Howard would not part with that. We could drop an assault boat. Two of these were carried in case the bridge was blown, though God only knew what good we could do then. Still I insisted that another 600lbs had to go."

I forgot to say welcome Pradelles ...

 

Thank you for all your answers.
Who was right, Howard or Wallwork ? Or Denis Edwards ? About the 249th RE, it was a parachute unit. 5 men of this unit has dropped with the 7 parachute battalion. May be the men who was cut at the last moment could dropped with this battalion.
Kind regards at all,
Xavier

 

Xavier,

249th (Airborne) Field Company RE was an airlanding unit with the 6th Airlanding Brigade. Part of 2 Platoon under Captain Neilson went in with the coup-de-main gliders. The rest of 2 platoon which formed a rafting party came in by glider landing at 3:20 A.M. on LZ 'N'. The remainder of the 249th arrived later by sea on D-Day according to their WD.

http://www.pegasusarchive.org/normandy/war_249coy.htm

There's a good group photo of them to be found here which you are probably aware of ?

http://www.89fss.com/affiliated/249fdcoy.htm

Do you have a source for a number of them jumping with 7 Para? I can't find any mention of that, but haven't looked everywhere as yet. I would think if any were actually cut they would have joined their mates in the rafting party.

Regards ...

 

Hey Cee,

Here you can find information about the detachment who was drooped with the 7 Para :

http://www.pegasusarchive.org/normandy/frames.htm

"The contingency plan was for 7 Parachute Battalion dropping north of Ranville to secure a bridgehead to the west of Benouville and the canal. This would involve ferrying troops across the water gaps and was to be supervised by a detachment of a Sergeant RE and four Sappers dropping with 7 Parachute Battalion. The equipment required, consisting of thirty inflatable RAF type dinghies and 500 fathoms of cordage, was carried down by Battalion personnel in kitbags with which they jumped. In order to get some light vehicles and 6-pounder anti-tank guns across four gliders with the balance of 2 Platoon 249 Field Company RE (Airborne) were to land with the main glider force some two hours later."

Have a nice day,

Xavier

 

Xavier,

I suspect the contingency plan, that would have been put into effect in the event of demolition of the bridges, would have been planned well ahead of the glider overloading problem which arose in the days leading up to D-Day. The planner would most certainly have chosen jump qualified engineers for the task. It doesn't make sense they would have used airlanding sappers who were suddenly cut from the coup-de-main party and who were most likely not experienced parachutists, nor trained to drop with all the added gear these guys would have been carrying.

Yous is an interesting interpretation, but I'm just not convinced that 249th Engineers would have been used in this way. I'll keep looking.

Regards ...

 

Two Canadian sticks dropped in the villages Hermanville & Colleville west of Caen canal bridge

 

Cee,

I think we are on the good way.

Coup de main :
00.20 A.M. 30 (or 25) sappers of the 2 Platoon under Captain Neilson went in gliders with the Ox and Bucks Detachment. Their mission are to secure the bridges.

Rafting Party :
00.50 A.M. 1 Sergeant and 4 sappers dropped on LZ 'N' with the 7 Para to supervised the crossing of the rivers by this battalion if the bridges are destroyed. To realize this crossing, some paratroopers dropped with thirty inflatable dinghies and twelve recce boats in large kit bags attached to their legs and released on a cord before landing.
03.20 A.M. The rest of 2 platoon came in 4 gliders who landed on DZ 'N'. Each of these gliders carried one light anti-tank gun raft, further RAF type inflatable dinghies, ferrying gear and two 30ft rolls of chespaling.

Seaborne :
Arrived on 8th June...it's another history.


Concerning the men who are cut, they could taken a glider of the "rafting party" or they could jumped with the 7 Para Battalion if they had a para qualification. May be L/Sgt Brown had a para qualification...!

Now, the principal problem is to know how many soldiers come in the gliders of "coup de main" ?
Without this information, it's impossible to approach the truth.

Steven AMBROSE say : "Two privates from each platoon would have to drop out"...

I wish you all a pleasant evening,

Xavier

 

Here's crude little chart based on the Pegasus Archive nominal roll.

Glider No. - Total - Pilots - OBLI - Engineers - Others - Extra (did not participate)

G T P OB E O E
1 - 30 - 2 - 23 - 5 6
2 - 30 - 2 - 22 - 5 - 1 - 6
3 - 31 - 2 - 22 - 5 - 2 - ?
4 - 30 - 2 - 23 - 5 3
5 - 30 - 2 - 22 - 5 - 1 - 3
6 - 30 - 2 - 22 - 5 - 1 - ?

Quotes from various books

Denis Edwards:

"Each glider was to be fitted with identical equipment and its passengers would include five Royal Engineers to deal with the demolition charges on the bridges. Because it was considered necessary to carry five Engineers in every glider it meant that our infantry platoons – normally of twenty-eight men – would have to be reduced to twenty-three since the maximum glider load was twenty-eight plus two glider pilots. The Airborne Engineers and the glider pilots were fully trained to fight alongside the infantry."

Will Fowler:

"The glider pilots, who had been practising their skills on carefully demarcated landing zones on the British Army training area on Salisbury Plain, were concerned that their aircraft would be overloaded, and so each of Howard’s platoon commanders had to tell two of their men that they would not be going on the operation but would rejoin the company after they had landed. A few days later, it was suggested that the company ought to have a medical officer on board because they were going into action completely alone, and so Capt John Vaughan RAMC was included. This meant that another man had to be left behind, but fortunately a soldier had sprained his ankle in a tough game of football and was excluded."

Neil Barber:

"And so the platoon commanders each had the extremely difficult task of choosing and then informing several men that they were not going. Lieutenant Wood arrived at a solution:

I think it was the last man to join the platoon. I think that was the kindest way. Nobody wanted to be left behind and John Howard said they were in tears when they were told they were to be left out. We never considered whether somebody was married or not. 5

5 - Lieutenant Wood: All the men were weighed, but not the officers. Someone said, ‘We can’t help it if Lieutenant Wood is X number of stone, he’s got to go.’ Bill Howard thinks that three men were left out of the No 5 glider: Sandy Ferguson from his section, Colin Willcox (Sweeney’s batman) and one other. Pearson, the glider pilot does not think this due to being overloaded! On John Howard’s glider, Bill Gray believes that they dropped some ammunition instead."

Stephen E. Ambrose

"Wallwork told Howard that the extra weight would increase air speed, and thus landing speed. They would need a longer landing area than was available. Howard told Captain Neilson of the Royal Engineers to get rid of some weight by dropping off one sapper per glider, but Neilson convinced Howard that he absolutely had to have all his sappers. Howard removed one boat from each glider. Not enough, Wallwork told him. Six hundred more pounds per glider had to go.

Howard reluctantly made his decision. Two privates from each platoon would have to drop out. It was a 'terrible decision', he recalls. He gave it to his platoon commanders and told them to select the men to be left behind. In Brotheridge's platoon, Billy Gray says, 'We all started shouting, "Parr's married, let Parr drop out. Let's get rid of Parr!" And Wally immediately did his nut, and he was allowed to stay.'

The lieutenants made the choices. The next day, Howard says, 'I had men asking to see me at company office and crying their eyes out; a big, tough, bloody airborne soldier crying his eyes out asking not to be left behind. It was an awful moment for them.'

At one of his briefings, Howard had as usual asked for questions. 'Sir', someone piped up, 'can't we have a doctor. We are going in on our own and all.' Howard thought that an excellent idea, asked Poett if he could get a volunteer from the divisional medical staff, and John Vaughan, an PAMC captain, came to join D Company. That meant another private had to be bumped, but fortunately, a soldier in Smith's platoon had sprained his ankle playing football."

As you can see there is a bit of variation in the accounts and that is just from the books I have. I don't see any indication that any Engineers were cut. A total of 30 would have participated in Operation Deadstick.

Regards ...