Defence of Rauray by the 24th Lancers, Tyneside Scottish et alia

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Ramiles, Apr 1, 2015.

  1. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    So as seems most logical (Thanks SDP!) I have split the stages of the "Battle of Rauray" now into:

    The capture of Rauray by the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry et alia
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/57168-the-capture-of-rauray-sherwood-rangers-yeomanry-et-alia/

    And....

    The Defence of Rauray by the 24th Lancers, Tyneside Scottish et alia. (This one!)

    The overall original Rauray thread is here:
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/57136-the-battle-of-rauray-19th-june-to-2nd-july-1944/

    More to come.

    Please follow the thread....

    All the best,

    Rm.

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28179]
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2016
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  2. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    A place for some links to: Defence of Rauray by the 24th Lancers, Tyneside Scottish et alia

    Books:

    "Breaking the Panzers: The Bloody Battle for Rauray" by Kevin Baverstock" - seems to be the consensus for "books" to buy as regards this one.

    'Hill 112' by Major Howe apparently has maps that show the main troop dispositions etc. (Thanks SDP!)

    "None Had Lances" - The story of the 24th Lancers by Leonard Willis
    http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/0951071807
    http://www.abebooks....-0951071807/plp

    Black Watch: Liberating Europe and catching Himmler - my extraordinary WW2 ... By Tom Renouf
    Black Watch

    Monty's Marauders: MontyÕs Marauders

    12th SS - Volume 1: The 12TH SS Volume One

    Weblinks:

    Plenty of detail in here
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Martlet
    - usual buyer beware caveats apply - and if anyone is aware of any glaring omissions or errors in this site (not every error in wikipedia though please ;) ) relating particularly to this thread - please make them known (nb. though wiki is fluid and changeable so people following this thread might have to bear that in mind :) ) - and notes of errors and omissions here about this wiki might then go out of date. :pipe:

    For context on the Normandy battles beyond D-day:
    http://warandsecurity.com/2014/06/12/normandy-44-the-battle-beyond-d-day/

    The following has a lot of descriptions about the battles in Normandy and includes one of Rauray:
    http://www.rememberingscotlandatwar...-veteran-very-quickly-The-Battle-for-Normandy

    Documentary? Films?: (Well one can hope! :) )

    Normandy 44 – The Battle Beyond D-Day BBC Two - Normandy '44: The Battle Beyond D-Day
    (Last shown in 2014 so not currently available on iplayer, but there are a couple of short clips from it on this page).

    A Wargame scenario for Rauray (with some maps)
    Devon Wargames Group: Rauray 1944 - Battlegroup Panzer Grenadier


    (More to follow in post, post edit here)
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2016
  3. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    A place for some events during: Defence of Rauray by the 24th Lancers, Tyneside Scottish et alia
    (Nb. War diaries tend to have the main details here, these are just some highlights that might be pointed out and considered for further comment or research. In some cases the accounts in the individual war diaries might differ and accounts on the German side might have additional, or conflicting information too. So as I said further comment or research might be due if anyone is aware of where current contentions might lie! There could be little chance to completely lift the fog of war but at least we have a chance to know where the densest patches are.)

    On Friday 30th June 1944

    The 24th L moved to the Rauray area. Rauray at this time was in allied hands but was threatened by axis patrols and an enemy counterattack on Rauray was thought imminent...

    Also on this date Major Sir Robert Arbuthnot - the leader of "B" squad 24th L was KIA: http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2336693/ARBUTHNOT,%20Sir%20ROBERT%20DALRYMPLE
    See also: http://www.unithistories.com/officers/Army_officers_ARB.html

    On Saturday 1st July 1944 - Nb. plenty of "post added edit" detail yet to fill in here etc. -

    0645 hours - The 24th Lancers were deployed with ‘C’ Squadron at Rauray, ‘A’ to the west & ‘B’ to the east. Attacks on Tyneside Scottish and 24L positions at Rauray began on the west, with the Germans fighting their way into that side of the village. The 24th L was able to prevent the enemy from going west to east, but hindered on that side by the dense orchards and heavily wooded country. The attack was eventually stopped however by 1 and 3 Troops, ‘C’ Sqn on the west side; and a rapid infantry counter attack (supported by two troops of ‘A’ Sqn), succeeded in driving the German infantry out of the village and back into the woods behind. During this attack the war diary of the 24th reported that "the enemy used 15 Panther tanks and one Tiger tank*, and although our tanks by virtue of the thick country were unable to engage them, the Anti tank gunners and the infantry got eleven of them before their positions were overrun and most of the gun crews killed." (*Nb. Rm - I'm not certain at the mo. if there were actually Tigers operating in this area?)

    Another attack was then swiftly put in by the Germans, this time against the Tyne Scots on the eastside of the village. 1 and 3 Tps, ‘C’ Sqn were withdrawn from the west side to reinforce 2 and 4 Tps ‘C’ Sqn in an orchard east of the village, from where they had a good field of fire of about 0.75 - 1km. The 24th L tanks however were prevented from moving south of the orchard as 2 German tanks were dominating that ground from positions on each flank.

    Further enemy attacks overran a company of infantry (on the forward left), but further advance by the enemy towards the village were halted by 24th L tanks which destroyed all six of the observed Panthers supporting the attack, and caused the remaining tanks and enemy infantry to withdraw.

    Throughout the rest of the day - repeated smaller German attacks, typically consisting of about a company of infantry with 3 –5 Panthers supporting, were beaten off.

    Guarding an open field which dominated the village of Rauray, to the left of the 24th L position: According to the war diary of the 24th L - Sgt.Wilcox, the Troop Sergeant of 2 Troop, "C" Sqn camouflaged his tank and advanced very slowly along a hedge until he was able to see the enemy FOP’s. Then he waited completely in the open, disguised as part of the hedge, until each enemy attack was committed and all enemy troops were clear of the orchards in which they formed up. Sgt.Wilcox then called up the remainder of his troop and also 1st Troop "C" Sqd, who speedily came up level with him, fired furiously for about 30 secs and then retired to their concealed positions under cover of smoke before the German 88mm guns could register on them. Later in the day the enemy discovered what we were doing and several times Sgt.Wilcox had to retire under heavy fire. But as soon as the firing was over he always wormed his way forward again to a position of observation."

    1800 hours - The Tyne Scots counterattacked to recapture forward positions. 24th L tanks advanced with them, in support with 3 and 4 Tps. ‘C’ Sqn the leading troops in the attack. This attack was successful.

    1830 hours - Forward positions entirely recaptured. 3 and 4 Tps. ‘C’ Sqn reported that the allied front resembled a graveyard of smoldering Panther tanks.

    On Sunday 2nd July 1944

    At last light the 24th Lancers were relieved by the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry (SRY) and moved to a defensive position on the high ground North of Fontenay.

    24L War diary reported: The bag for the Brigade front was 34 Panthers of which 31 were destroyed in the Rauray area, 9 of these by the 24th Lancers. In addition, the 24th L also destroyed 3 SP guns. 24th L tank losses were 3 Shermans destroyed.

    The following message was received by the Commanding Officer 24th L:

    “ The following signal has been received from Cmd 49 Div and is forwarded – Will you please convey to Lt.Col.Anderson and all ranks 24 Lancers, my thanks and heartiest congratulations along with those of the whole Div on the magnificent support that they have given to 70 Bde today. No co-operation could have been higher and no results could have been better. I hope we may have many such successful days in store.”

    Further threads: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/57330-24th-lancers-in-july-1944/

    (More to follow in post, post edit here)
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    From 1 Tynside Scottish War Diary June 1944

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  5. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks Drew!

    By the way - all - does anyone have a decent battle map of this (or these actions?) readily available - or is a good one somewhere where it can be http pointed at?

    If it's in a particular book then a page ref. might come in handy and people can cast their thoughts on which copywritten maps are particularly good, but I expect there's something at least "adequate" available "freely" online somewhere?

    'cause at a push one can be made up. Or something on wiki can be pointed to!
    Although as regards a detailed map of troops this site (at this time of posting) was surprisingly little use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Martlet

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2016
  6. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Interesting to see that even War Diaries are fallible. They will have formed up to the East side of Tessel Wood, not the West side........or is my source reference incorrect?........doubtless down to fog of War!? According to my understanding, the 4/7RDG with associated troops were to the left (East side) of the attack and 24L with their associated troops to the right (west side), itself being bounded by the road that runs down the east side of Tessel Wood itself.
     
  7. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    24 Lancers War Diary June 1944

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  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

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  10. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Here is a map from CAB 44 Vol III
     

    Attached Files:

    Ramiles likes this.
  11. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    And here is the area around the crossroads today - A battlefield study. I think the anti tank platoon commander is explaining how the position might be defended now..
    .
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    By the looks of their tank losses the Germans might have been attacking the point of a "V" that actually tuned out to be the point of an inverse "V" and ended up trapped in a fire zone surrounded on 3 sides. Slight shades of Caanae perhaps, with the attacker drawn in and enveloped.

    Sheldrake, et al. It must be an interesting study in modern terms. With the features like the wood, the aspect of naval fire causing high risk and the confusion of not knowing quite where the enemy were or could pop-up next, must have been huge. And add in the rather fixed infantry, artillery and tanks...

    Even if war diaries were pages long for every day I doubt that a full picture of what occurred could have been written, or that anyone would feel like writing it after that, but they seemed at the time to have thought that this one was particularly of note.

    By the way.... did any of the war diary authors simply give up during the war? get leave, were KIA or wounded? In all the ones's I've seen so far the handwriting in them seems to have been remarkably persistent. Was there an officer in each Regiment that assumed this role? (If you have some good answers please pm me at some point and if it's not a link http or to another thread please could either you (anyone) or I will start this as a new thread. (I've looked but have found nothing on this as yet)

    All the best,

    Rm
     
  13. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Questions on this topic for further research

    # This seems rather complete for now, so asides from filling in bits and bobs - as post post edits - I am probably going to press on...

    # Any other questions unanswered as yet on this thread ???
     
  14. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28191]


    From the wiki on "Operation Martlet"

    A survey around Rauray led the Tyneside Scottish to select an area east and south-east of "ring contour 110" in front of A and B companies, which had the only good field of observation, as a tank killing ground covered by four 6-pounder anti-tank guns by the evening. Patrols were sent forward but discovered little because of the poor view in the bocage.[34] The 11th RSF held the right flank near Juvigny, in touch with the 50th Division to the west and the 1/4th King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (KOYLI) to the east, who were at the western edge of Tessel Wood. The Hallamshires held the south-west corner of the wood, a little to the north of Vendes and linked with the 4th Lincolns at Tessel-Bretteville. The 11th DLI were dug in near Rauray and linked with the Tyneside Scottish on the high ground at "ring contour 110".[35]

    Eastwards, across the divisional and corps boundary along the road to le Haut du Bosq, the 6th King's Own Scottish Borderers of the 15th (Scottish) Division were dug in on the south side of the road, an obvious avenue of attack against VIII Corps. Only the units near "ring contour 110" had a relatively unhampered view, the other battalions being hemmed in by banks, hedgerows and trees.[35] The three 49th Division artillery regiments, tanks of the 24th Lancers, anti-tank guns of the 217th Anti-tank Regiment, two dummy 6-pounder anti-tank guns and the machine-guns of the 2nd Kensingtons were made ready to support of the infantry.[36]Wireless intelligence gleaned from the II SS Panzer Corps, led to Bomber Command dropping 1,300 long tons (1,300 t) of bombs during the evening, on suspected German tank concentrations at Villers-Bocage, obliterating the town in twelve minutes, along with a naval and artillery bombardment.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2016
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  15. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Taking a look at this photo with a very plain: (and lovely :D ) T 263137 on the Sherman tank: THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORMANDY 1944 (B 6225)
    With the "Object description": Infantry of 49th Division digging in beside Sherman tanks near Rauray, 30 June 1944.

    Led me to this: Allied WWII AFV Discussion Group: 75mm turret for Hybrid Sherman

    "Page 182 of George Forty's "Royal Tank Regiment - A Pictorial History" shows a 75mm Hybrid (T-263137) of 3RTR.
    The accompanying caption describes the picture as being taken in July 1944, near Rauray on the Tilly-Caen front."

    (Ignoring the difference in date between IWM and the "network54" quote of "George Forty's "Royal Tank Regiment" - as I trust IWM it's (most logically) June (and not July there - july is "probably just a typo of the guy that wrote the ref. i expect ;) ).

    I'm trying to "place" the 3rd RTR on the "Rauray" map if this is "indeed" "one of theirs" but picking up confusion about where they "actually were" on the IWM date in question i.e. 30th June 1944. They seem to have captured Mouen (about half way between Rauray and Caen, but a wee bit closer to Caen than to Rauray on the 27th June), and might have then subsequently moved closer to Rauray after that or merely stayed there?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Royal_Tank_Regiment

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Armoured_Brigade_(United_Kingdom) (Nb - cut and paste this link if you actually want it to "work" - as the brackets snafu it!) This wiki actually seems to have the 24th L in the 29th (until 24th L disbanded 24 July 1944) rather than (after the 24th L initially being in the 29th) later moving to the 8th Armoured Brigade. :mad: )

    Oddly though, that led me via a "simple" google to this: Page Title

    Which is a "heavy" bit of research on some of the knocked out German tanks (with pictures and maps) in the area of Rauray.

    Quite a lot to "digest" there though, and I'm hoping since my original inquiry was along the route of where were the 3rd RTR at Rauray it might somewhere in the pages there have an answer to this - as well as a lot of other "interesting stuff" to peruse :)

    (Sadly "not the nicest" looking webpage though :( with odd coloured texts and rather a distracting "background" behind it all)

    Still, nice "quote" from Sergeant Dring 'MM and bar' (SRY) - "You don't see a brick wall spark like that"
    Sergeant George 'Killer' Dring
    & see ww2talk thread: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/571...r-allied-tank-crews-or-even-individual-tanks/

    Rm.

    Ps. SDP's post #16 below would put this pic as taken well up in the top right of the map below (and possibly further off it in the direction of Caen ;) ). Or alternatively with the grid ref 923693 - the posn. should be able to be read on here: http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex/maps/europe/zoomify138906.html

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28179]
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2016
  16. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    On 30th June, 3RTR ended the day at map reference 923693 which I make out to be just to the NW of St Mauvieu which is itself about 5km to the NE of Rauray.
     
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  17. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Taking a look at : https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@49.1...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sejbsluNmAsQpH6NaIJOAaw!2e0

    For the way "into" Rauray from the west. The contemporary accounts seem to suggest that the German's broke into the west side of Rauray at one point, before being pushed back out by a counter attack through the village from the east.

    I still can't quite understand though if this means that the Germans hooked around the southern infantry positions and chose this as "their preferred route in" - I assume since they "knew" Rauray they actually knew what they were doing and why they were going this way? Right now it seems like a dangerous route towards a particularly narrow gap. Presumably they were trying to get into Rauray (via a disguised route) in order to try to seize the village and also attack the infantry positions posted on the south of Rauray from the rear?

    It's hard to tell though from what's changed - and even if rather than coming up first from the south they were actually already more to the west of Rauray and were travelling out of the woods and over fields almost due east rather than tracking north up a hedged road (and then around) and then turning east?

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28191]

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2016
  18. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Battlegroup Weidinger et alia (9th SS Panzer, 2nd SS Panzer etc) were not after Rauray at all. They were trying to get further, to Cheux. Rauray was simply "on the way' to Cheux. It they had taken Cheux, they would have cut off a huge number of Allied troops themselves heading for Hill 112 etc (12th Scottish Div, 11th Armoured Div etc). This was effectively the Axis forces last roll of the dice and therefore their last real opportunity to 'throw the Allies back into the Sea'. When the Axis forces failed at Rauray it really set their fate in Normandy and led to von Rundstetds famous quote about 'make peace you fools'.
     
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  19. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks SDP,

    I'm trying to "reconstruct" in my thoughts which actions panned out. The reports I think I've seen seem to say that the Germans "came out of woods attacked Rauray and when repelled went back into them". I'm pretty sure Tessel Wood and the area of Le Manoir at this point were "allied secured" and think therefore that the Germans might have been coming up from Brettevilette.

    I think I've also seen that the Germans possibly had clusters of troops just to the south of Vendes (but I'm not sure if they were able to come into action across La Bordel Rau (the river/stream running south/north). Taking routes 1 or 2 on the map below might have made sense? I think that routes 3 and 4 were into British infantry (some of which they managed to over-run) and it would seem that quite a few German tanks were K/O'd there. I think I'd like to try and work out which German troops (armour or inf or mixed) at the mo might have been "embarked" potentially on route 1 and 2 (if indeed any were :pipe: ) - so the kind of German troops these were and how or why they were defeated there.

    Route 3 might in theory have "resulted" in the Germans actually coming up from the south and "ending up fighting in the west of Rauray" - but if that were the case they don't seem to be coming up from "the woods" - unless by "the woods" they mean that patch of presumably orchards or trees that seems to sit on the east of Brettevilette? It's perfectly possible though I suppose.

    I'm wondering too if instead of all these different "discrete routes" the Germans might just as easily have advanced against Rauray on a "broad front" - but the landscape around there seems full of thick hedges, ditches and walls (bocage) and there doesn't seem to be a good "broad front" route self-evident there. They would seem to be forced to adopt narrower columns by the roads and paths on the map. Heavy tanks might have been able to just "push" through over rough country, but the allied anti-tank guns, artillery and fireflys themselves could have or would have put pay to that.

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28220]

    Ps. 'Hill 112' by Major Howe apparently has maps that show the main troop dispositions etc. (Thanks SDP! Post # 20 below)
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2016
  20. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    The best book for you to read on this topic would be 'Hill 112' by Major Howe (I think that's right). It's got maps that show the main troop dispositions etc.
     
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