Crown and wreath for a BQMS in RA

Discussion in 'WW2 Militaria' started by Sarahc5, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. Sarahc5

    Sarahc5 Member

    My Grandfather was a BQMS in the RA in WW2 and I am told he would have worn a Crown and Wreath on his wrist. Does anyone have an example/picture of what this would look like please as I would like to purchase one but there seems to be many variations, especially in colour. I have been told that dress wear would have been on a brown leather strap and a fabric badge for everyday use. I shared one photo and was told it needed the Imperial Crown and haven't got any closer to confirming which ones to buy for my collection.

    Thank you!
     
  2. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    A bell rings in the back of my head that the insignia you are describing is that worn by the BSM (Battery Sergeant Major) and the BQMS (Battery Quartermaster Sergeant) wore three stripes with a gun inside the V. I'll try and check but someone may come up with a efinite answer.

    Tim
     
  3. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    The single crown on the sleeve is that of a Sergeant Major or Battery Sergeant Major. A Warrant Officer Class 2.

    When a wreath is added, it denotes the Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant. Still a Warrant Officer Class 2.

    Here is an example from the reign of King George VI - the Second World War:

    upload_2020-1-27_11-23-45.png

    Regards

    Frank
     
    Sarahc5 likes this.
  4. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Interesting but doesn't answer the original question. Is the wreath there to denote regimental or quatermaster?
     
  5. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Frank, entirely agree with what you say but OP is asking about the insignia of the Battery Quartermaster Sergeant. I think that this is at Staff Sergeant level and his insignia would be three stripes with a gun, or gun and crown. (not sure which) in the Vee of the stripes.

    Tim
     
  6. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Almost certain that this is the insignia of a BQMS. Happy to be corrected.

    upload_2020-1-27_13-40-23.png
    Tim
    Edit. Note for WW2 the Crown should be a Tudor Crown: [​IMG]not the later (post 1953) St Edward's Crown [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
    Sarahc5 and Tricky Dicky like this.
  7. Historic Steve

    Historic Steve Researching 21 Army Group/BAOR post VE day

    In my army service 60s and 70s, the wreath around the crown would indicate a warrant officer class two who was NOT a battery/company/squadron sergeant major, having the appointment of regimental/battalion/orderly room quartermaster sergeant major and would wear the wreath around the crown rank badge.
    One of my uncles was called up in 1939, too old for immediate front line service, he joined the Army Physical Training Corps and earned the rank of sergeant major instructor, wearing the wreath around the crown rank badge.

    Hope this helps
     
    timuk likes this.
  8. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Sarah.

    My hunch is that your grandfather was indeed a BQMS at some point - three stripes and a crown over the top, and they rose to become an RQMS - a crown surrounded by a wreath, with a period as a BSM in the middle.

    Regards

    Frank
     
    Sarahc5 and Sheldrake like this.
  9. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Admittedly it's WiKi but, if it's correct, this may explain the somewhat differing views.
    "From 1938 to 1947 all WOII ranks wore the crown in wreath rank now worn by regimental quartermaster sergeants."

    Frank - being artillery would he also not have a gun as per my #6?

    Tim
     
    dbf likes this.
  10. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Haven't seen this posted yet so thought I would post to hopefully add more to the thread for now and later. It seems Warrant Officers of all sorts were not uncommon and I also note that quite a few are now obsolete. I am also aware that the link does not provide definitive descriptions of the insignia worn but hey ho, one step at a time

    Using the links it does provide a description of what their duties would generally include

    Warrant officer (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia

    TD

    British Army ranks | National Army Museum
    Warrant Officer Class 2 (WO2)
    A WO2 has similar roles and responsibilities to WO1, but at a sub-unit level (below regimental). Appointments include company sergeant major and squadron sergeant major.
    Insignia: Crown, sometimes surrounded by a wreath (depending on appointment)
    [​IMG]
     
    Sarahc5 likes this.
  11. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    British Army -


    So it seems for a Warrant Officer 1 they would wear:
    upload_2020-1-28_10-5-30.jpeg

    For Warrant Officer 2 they would wear:
    upload_2020-1-28_10-4-25.jpeg

    and for Warrant Officer 3 they would wear:
    upload_2020-1-28_10-5-1.jpeg


    Example - WO2 arm band
    upload_2020-1-28_10-6-20.jpeg

    TD
     
  12. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    The images above are for a slightly later date than WW2 so apologises there they should have been slightly different and in the 1920 - 1953 range as shown in this link provided by a more knowlegdeable member than I on this subject

    British Army other ranks rank insignia - Wikipedia

    I was close but no cigar in this instance

    TD
     
    Sarahc5 and timuk like this.
  13. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    There are examples of Company Quartermaster Sergeants Stripes on sale by various militaria dealers and these are three chevrons and a crown and the squadron quartermaster sergeant was the same. It would seem logical that so was the battery quartermaster sergeant. The wreath applied to the Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant
     
    Sarahc5 likes this.
  14. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Have you obtained a copy of his service record from the Veterans Agency. Family history is sometimes garbled. The service record will tell you what units he served in and what job he did.
     
    Sarahc5 likes this.
  15. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Thanks to the link supplied by Idler I think I now have the insignia question for the RA in ww2 sussed out.
    RSM (WO1) - wristband with Royal Arms
    RQMS and BSM (both WO2) - wristband with crown inside wreath
    BQMS - three stripes with star and gun (as illustrated in my #6)

    Tim
     
  16. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    A BSM only has the crown - no wreath.

    Frank
     
  17. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    And I suspect, going by the Squadron Quartermaster Sergeant example - no cannon either ie nothing different between horse foot or gun.
     
  18. Sarahc5

    Sarahc5 Member

    Hello everyone,

    Thank you so much for all of your replies and I am sorry for my delayed response (I have been working non-stop).

    So, I am going with three stripes with star and gun as pictured by Tim - thank you all very much, I am glad I checked.

    He was definitely a BQMS and I am lucky enough to have Harry's service records. He was born in 1901 and had a twin sister. He joined the army at 18 and was a professional soldier for nearly twenty years, posted mostly in India where my Nan was born. He retired just a few months before WW2 broke out, so he naturally re-enlisted.

    He was part of the 6th HAA Regiment who had a long run of bad luck which is detailed in Pat Walker's book.

    He was a POW in Saigon for several years but was finally rescued by the RAF.
    ''The plane, loaded with 24 POW’s and the RAF crew of four, took off on the return flight, landing at Bangkok to refuel.It is then reported that about 1pm on that day villagers to the village of Nuaunggangle about 13 mile north west of Moulmein in Burma and about 150 miles south east of the final destination of Rangoon heard an aircraft out at sea, followed by an explosion. The same evening at high tide they found various articles washed ashore and the next day at low tide saw the wreckage scattered over a sandbank. Several bodies which were unidentified were recovered but no trace of survivors were found.''

    Unbeknown to Harry, his wife had died just a few months before from pneumonia, so when Harry died, my Nan and her siblings were left orphaned and went in to care. For that reason, we knew nothing about their parents until I started researching my family tree. This led to me discovering Harry and his life story and I even managed to find photos of him and his wife through distant cousins in Scotland.

    My Nan and her siblings passed away many years ago, but her youngest sister, my Auntie Pat, was still alive and I was able to not only tell her who her parents were, but to show her photos of parents for the first time when she was in her seventies. It was such an emotional experience and a great honour.

    My Nan got an award in the 1990s for adopting and fostering so many children (growing up in care had a huge impact on her). It really made me appreciate how the impact of War is still felt and has shaped our lives today. Had it not of been for Harry's death, my Nan probably wouldn't have gone on to care for so many children that needed it.

    Sorry for writing so much, but I just wanted to share why I have started my collection and why it means so much to me. I don't have much knowledge but obviously want get it right and love learning from people like yourselves. I plan to have it all professionally framed once it's complete and am also hoping to visist the Kranji War Memorial later this year.

    Thanks again.

    Sarah
     

    Attached Files:

    timuk and Owen like this.
  19. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Anyone think to search the IWM collection for "BQMS" ?

    Click link go to iwm site & zoom in on their arms.

    [​IMG] ITALY : FIFTH ARMY : "THE CIRCUS". © IWM (NA 13075) IWM Non Commercial License

    Original wartime caption: BQMS W.Yarrow of 42 Evelyn Avenue, Doncaster, nearest camera, and BQMS G.Stabeler of Memorial Club, Cottingham, Yorks, enjoying a glass of wine before their journey to the front.


    And...

    [​IMG] FIFTH ARMY : THE ARMY POST OFFICE IN THE ANZIO BRIDGEHEAD. © IWM (NA 12925) IWM Non Commercial License


    Original wartime caption: B.Q.M.S. W.E.Holman of Prince Arthur, Little London, Chichester, Sussex, sits in the entrance to his dug-out writing home.
     
    Sarahc5 and timuk like this.
  20. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Thanks Owen. That would seem to confirm my post #6 that BQMS is:
    [​IMG]
    Tim
     
    Sarahc5 and Owen like this.

Share This Page