Corporal Morris Lemberger 4749417 Green Howards (Yorkshire Regiment) 7th btn

I am currently researching Corporal Morris Lemberger who is commemorated on a war memorial at Hindle House, Arcola Street, Hackney, London. The information that I have on him so far is... Service No. 4749417 Reg. Green Howards (Yorkshire Regiment) 7th btn Date of Death: 14th November 1942 Age: 24 Son of Isaac & Betsy Lemberger (possibly of Hackney?) He is on the Alamein Memorial Column 59.
I would very much appreciate any further information such as place of death, burial place if known, photographs of Morris and the memorial column, I would like to make contact with his family. Also, could someone please give me the war diary reference?
Thanks Natalie Longman

 

Natalie

I see that he is known on the Jewish War Graves site:


Surname First Name Rank Date of Death Branch Regiment Nationality Cemetery Country Cemetery Locality Cemetery Grave
Lemberger Morris Corporal 14/11/1942 British Army Green Howards (Yorkshire Regiment) British Egypt n/a ALAMEIN MEMORIAL Column 59.

Have you made any enquiries at the AJEX Military Museum ?
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=ajex+military+museum

Ron

 

Hello Natalie,

Cpl M Lemberger's service number is from the York & Lancaster Regiment block of numbers, so he wasn't originally a Green Howard. However, at the time of his death he served with the 7th Bn Green Howards, 69th Infantry Brigade, 50th (Northumbrian) Division.

It is likely that he took part in the 2nd Battle of El Alamein - 23 October to 4 November 1942 - and was then invloved in subsequent operations. This involved a pursuit of the enemy in a Brigade column - 5th Bn East Yorkshire Reigiment, and 6th & 7th Bns Green Howards - securing the western edge of Ruweisat Ridge that night and then striking out along the Rahman Track. A lot of deep minefields were encountered and had to be worked around. On the evening of the 6 November, all but one company of the 7th Bn Green Howards moved back to the area around Deir El Mireir to take part in post battle salvage operations.

The remaining company, with battalion carriers and supporting arms now struck out hard west, its orders being 'Advance as fast as possible; accept big risk and attack the enemy with utmost dash'. The 6th and 7th Bns Green Howards company columns between them, having intercepted an enemy column, captured some 60 Officers and 700 Other Ranks from the Italian Bresica, Folgore and Pavia Divisions, including the Divisional Commander and staff of the Pavia Division. During the next 3 days thousands of PoW's were taken. By 9 November they had reached Minqar Falma on the Mersa Matruh-Siwa track; level with the leading troops of the X Armoured Corps. As the numbers of PoW's taken had become a trickle the company moved back to join the rest of the Division at Deir El Mireir on 12 November.

For the following 3 weeks the whole Division was invloved in salvaging War materiel from the El Alamein battlefield.

I don't know for certain but it sppears likely that, given that Cpl M Lemberger has no known grave, he died in an accident whilst clearing the battlefield, for example, an expolosion.

For better information, I do know that Andy (handle 'Drew5233) has a copy of 'The Story of The Green Howards 1939-1945' and may do a look-up for you... Send him a PM (personal message) and ask if he can help?! He may also be able to assist with the pertinent War Diary.

Best,

Steve.

 

Thanks for your help,
Owen - I am definitely going to get a copy of the war diary working back from dod.
Ron - I've contacted Ajex to see if they have any further on Morris although they have him as Maurice!
Steve - thanks for the info, was it quite common for soldiers to move to different regiments?

 

Hello Natalie,

Rommel, his DAK and their Italian comrades, attacked the Gazala line defences near the end of May 1942 and by mid-June had both taken Tobruk and defeated the British Armour at 'Knightsbridge' (and its surrounds) to the east, i.e. behind the Gazala defences. The 50th (Northumbrian) Division were the last British and Commonwealth troops to withdraw from the Gazala line and by the time they did, both, the coast road east was congested by the withdrawing South Africans (and others) and in places held by the enemy, and the element of surprise had gone. They therefore withdrew by attacking the enemy from whence he had come, the west and then moving south east and east to the Egyptian Border. This feat was so successful that the Division arrived at the Border with few losses in men.

However, it then acted as the 8th Army rearguard in the further retreat to the El Alamein line and in the actions it was involved in lost much of its boot strength and war materiel. The 7th Bn Green Howards had virtually ceased to exist by the end of July 1942 and certainly, troop replacements from the Green Howards depot and General Service Corps, although helpful, did not make up the shortfall. The answer, transfer men in from other units. These 'feeder' units may have been in the UK or otherwise not facing the enemy. Just after the 2nd Battle of El Alamein, the 44th (Home Counties) Division was disbanded and its troops transferred to other Divisions within 8th Army requiring replacements.

So, Cpl M Lemberger probably found himself transferred to the 7th Bn Green Howards as a replacement.

Best,

Steve.

 

Hi Natalie,

Here's some pages from the book 'The Story of The 5th Battalion The East Yorkshire Regiment TA' written by L. M. Garwood. Excuse the quality but I was like a contortionist trying to get the book on to where we have our scanner at the moment. Cheers - Maria

 

Maria, thanks for the scans it seems to confirm what Steve Mac said in his earlier post that there was no fighting on Cpl Lemberger's DOD. I am eager to see the war diary now to find out if he is mentioned.

 

Hello Natalie,

I decided to look at this from another perspective, namely, the troops would work in teams whilst clearing the battlefield and if one was killed in an accidental explosion it would probably follow that others would be similaraly killed too. I therefore did a search of the CWGC site via Geoff's search engine and found 12 men of the 7th Bn, Green Howards died in the whole of November 1942.

Result: All excepting 1 are noted as killed on the 14 November 1942 and all have no known grave. All 11 men that are reported as having died on the 14 November are commemorated on either Panel 59 or 60 of the Alamein Memorial.

I believe that it is therefore likely that, either, there was a catostrophic explosion which killed these men or the 14 November has become a convenient date of death for men confirmed killed during the 2nd Battle of El Alamein and up to 14 November 1942 in circumstances where no body has been found/identified.

Did you send a PM to Andy about this?

Best,

Steve.

 

From The Story of the Green Howards 1939-1945 by Synge

 

Thanks, Andy!

Natalie - The Story of The Green Howards 1939-1945 (Synge) has no information about Cpl M Lemberger or the other 10 Commemorations dated 14 November 1942. The applicable War Diary is probably the next step, but if no information there look for the relevant 'Missing Persons File' - both will be found at the National Archive.

Best,

Steve.

 

Does anyone have, or know where I can get a photograph of The Alemein Memorial Column 59?

 

We have now made contact with a relative of Cpl Lemberger, she doesn't have much information, but thinks he died on a ship (this would explain no grave).

" we only know he was on a prison of ship heading home"

Having looked for ships sunk in the area on 14/11/1942 the SS Narkunda seems a possibility, but I can't find a casualties list.

Any help with this would be appreciated.

 

I don't think he was heading home...try the SS Scillin ..unfortunately the expert in these matters is no longer with us.. Mr Brian Sim
What I can tell you is he was captured in North Africa and according to my friend `Verrieres` Brian had highlighted his lack of Camp in WO21 as a sign that when the list was made the Cpl like others on this list was already dead
Kyle

 

Using the CWGC database with 14 Nov 1942 as the only date and selecting Cemetery/Memorial as Alamein Memorial, produces 783 results.
I think Mr Jinks has provided the answer, as it also fits with the family story ".... he was on a prison ship ....."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Scillin

 

Thank you, the story is coming together. I now need to find out if he was on the list of casualties for the SS Scillin.
This is the Italian POW list which has no camp attributed to Cpl Lemberger. From POWVETS.com

 

I think Brian had the only list it was his hard work that brought the actual sinking to the publics attention? I wonder if he may have supplied the Green Howards with a list of their men ? I know he did likewise for the DLI and he had an article in the Green Howards newsletter in 1996 regarding his research ???

Kyle

 

We have now had it confirmed by CWGC that Corporal Lemberger was lost on the SS Scillin.
Thank you all for your help with this.