Converting Wartime Coordinates To Modern Map Coordinates

I have some intelligence documents that have, what I believe to be, the coordinates of German defences in the Rimini/Pesaro Area, Italy.
Trouble is I have no idea how to use them or convert them into something usable, either on a modern civvy map or Google Earth.
There are also two version, one type British and one type Polish.
Any help would be much appreciated.

Tom.

British:


Polish:

 

I have to say, part of the fun is guessing which map square they're talking about. I've spent endless hours working out coordinates in the Wq, Ws and Wr, Wv Ww Wx areas (north italy zone) when its turned out to be in the southern zone, LZ, MV, MW, Qe, Ra, Rb (south italy zone) in the bits that cross over.

Don't know why but I've always found the northern sector to be more accurate. Annoyingly map squares also cross over sometimes, depending on what map sheets they were using at the time. On the mountains I've just been mapping the 1st guards brigade were using one square and the coldstream another.

Its a lot of guestimate work given where they were meant to be... but sometimes coordinates can just look plain wrong, like having a bridge in the middle of the desert... but then you find that the bridge is for a drain culvert, or a train viaduct for a line that was dismantled in the 1960's; or a river that's seasonal....

Basically you can't post map coordinates unless you have a date and/or a location and a good idea which region they were in in the first place (that's why they have a location part in the war diaries to the left, but no bugger ever used it) . It took me bl**dy ages to find steamroller farm because of this.

 

Owen,
That is fantastic!
I've got a whole bunch of locations some which I have not been able to locate on Google Earth and this is going to be fantastic.

I will start a thread soon on the docs I got from the National Archive and I'll do a then and now sort of thing; concrete, trenches, gun emplacements etc.

Oh, I didn't get your 'Visitor Messages', seems that there is no notification for it. Anyway, now the weather is warming up I'm back on the scene.
If I go Ravenna way I'll give you a shout.

Tom.

 

The good thing about these docs is that I know they are from the Rimini/Pesaro area so presumably that takes all the guesswork out of it.

Tom.

 

The good thing about these docs is that I know they are from the Rimini/Pesaro area so presumably that takes all the guesswork out of it.

Tom.

Until they start using 4 digit coordinates yes, in which case there's quite a lot of ground to cover but they only did that when they were being lazy as it was meant to be for towns or when features on their maps were fairly obivious... features which a lot of the time don't appear on modern maps.

A word of warning, a lot of mountains and small towns have the same names. I spent a week thinking Mount Faito was south of naples next to vesuvio... it was the famous one which turned out to be within sight of the monte faito I was after. Monte Grande or is a personal favourite... big mountain... there's loads of them. Monte Rotundo is another.

 

I have to say, part of the fun is guessing which map square they're talking about. I've spent endless hours working out coordinates in the Wq, Ws and Wr, Wv Ww Wx areas (north italy zone) when its turned out to be in the southern zone, LZ, MV, MW, Qe, Ra, Rb (south italy zone) in the bits that cross over.

I've had the same looking at coordinates in Belgium and the Netherlands. A few ended up in the North Sea before I found the correct location. Brilliant bit of software though and if I recall correctly, credit due to Phaethon for bringing it to our attention originally.

 

I've hit a snag. Most of the coordinates are fine and I've matched them up to within 50m or so of known sites. However, I have a remainder that don't work out.

For example:
070799 MG Pit and trenches West of Pesaro.
If I use the WR prefix it gives me a position East of Florence, which is not correct.

012797 88mm Pak43 East of Tomba di Pesaro.
WR prefix gives a location around Florence.

818017 Futa Pass casemate.
I get a fix miles away in Perugia.

I have a similar problems with the Polish coordinates.
e.g. 036817, 115811, 037811 etc. These and similar coordinates give me locations around Florence but I'm sure they are Adriatic Coast.
Do the Polish use a different prefix?

Tom.

 

Owen,
I think that's got it.
Thank you.
Tom.

 

I've had the same looking at coordinates in Belgium and the Netherlands. A few ended up in the North Sea before I found the correct location. Brilliant bit of software though and if I recall correctly, credit due to Phaethon for bringing it to our attention originally.


To be honest I'm not sure I did come up with it first. The guy who wrote echo delta does however need a medal... and also to do the far east and north africa; but that's another story.

A few further points about map coordinates.

• Be aware of the situation of a ww2 soldier: Which map sheet they used depended on the one they had at the time. So one group might use the northern edge of one map, whilst another might use the southern edge of another.
• Be aware of realistic location spellings: I already mentioned that places can have the same names (case in point: monte faito/monte grand) but the british still have trouble pronouncing ypres today, and we travel a lot more then our forbearers did. They often spelled it phonetically, or short hand... Chiesa del bando for instance. Its reffered to as a town, in fact its the church, bando the actual town was to the south. Chiesa being italian for church.
• Have a bit of empathy: Following on from this, in the middle of the night, under fire in the pouring rain... would you know exactly where you were?
• Look out for patterns: If something looks wrong or out of place, such as the coy moved an unfeasable difference, or a digit that stands out as being different then ask why.
• Be open minded: Conversely, things change. Groups make sudden unexpected movements, rivers dry up or are re-channeled, and bridges re-located nearbye. Just because it doen't fit what you expect, doesn't mean its wrong.
• Be realistic: Typo's happen, people can make mistakes or mis-hear locations.... or not be able to read their CO's handwriting. As apparently, happens a lot with 8's looking zeros and 1's like 7's.

case in point for the pattern typo: (extract from the war diary... spot the obvious mistake)

8th feb:
1830: The Bn relives 2/4 KOYLI under fire.
Coy posns are as follows:
No 1 Coy 860033
No 2 Coy 969034
No 3 Coy 867035
No 4 Coy 862035
Bn HQ 868032

• Check your results: Bde, divisional diaries and corps are great for checking locations are right.... some might have maps. Other time movement orders (those little slips in war diaries that you never bother copying because there were so many of them) have exact routs on them... some with exact cooordinates that were pre planned and more likely to be right then a misheard communique on the radio). As an example I discovered that on the corrdinates above not only was the 8 mistyped as a 9, but they had the wrong coys for each location. Only by reading a veteran account was I able to put it right, and further research in the Bde diary was able to confirm my hypothesis.

 

Classic case in point: I had a situation where the objective was a river crossing. Sounds fair enough but it was miles ahead of the company positions and appeared to be in the middle of nowhere with no river next to it at all.

Viewing the area with an arial perspective on google was no help, but it did suggest a green tree line running east to west and trees suggest water... or a ditch.

Using street view, you can make out that the hedge row is a culvert for a very narrow but deep looking river that is unmarked on google.

 

Sorry to dig up an old thread,but ,since i'm using this coordinates translator quite often,i can tell you that ,in my case,all my "spots" are everytime 150-200 meters away from the real place,and 90 times on 100,to the North.I helped some friends in Normandy,they needed new places to dig,and that's what they told me.

 

Sorry to dig up an old thread,but ,since i'm using this coordinates translator quite often,i can tell you that ,in my case,all my "spots" are everytime 150-200 meters away from the real place,and 90 times on 100,to the North.I helped some friends in Normandy,they needed new places to dig,and that's what they told me.

You're looking for a level of accuracy not possible in ww2, and if you read the echodelta website then you will see that the level of variance translating coordinates is about right for what you are getting.

"Its imprecision, evaluated on the basis of a series of "gauged" points, varies from 5 to 30 arc-seconds, depending on the map projection used (this corresponds to and imprecision varying from 150 to 1000 meters on the field). "

(Remember 4 digit coordinates give you a larger gridsquare, 6 are more accurate but still only a range).

For accuracy error-checking I would suggest that you use the original maps to identify cartographic features such as bridges or cross roads, but even then you'll still frequently get the same problem, especially for general areas that lack such features.

Also, as the veterans on this site will attest, working out where you were was extremely difficult at the best of times.

Finally, when you are digging at a site- if its round with fins and ticks... Don't hit it with a spade.

 

This 150 meters error is no problem cause as we are living generally close to the sites,time doesn't matters.And i only work with 6 digits coordinates.The piece of luck i had that permitted me to realize this error was a sentence in a US AA:"sniper in church at(123456)"And then i clearly measured my difference..