Many years ago I bought a Tamiya 1:35 Churchill Crocodile. I built it but it came with very sketchy markings, just a 79 Division sign and a census number. As snow is forecast this week and I shall prpbably stay indoors I got the Crocodile out of a cupboard, dusted it off and gave it a fresh coat of paint. I am still stuck for markings. My reference library has plenty of photos of Crocodiles but markings there are none except the 79 Division sign. Can any one tell me what markings were used? Division/brigade sign. Arm of Service sign. Squadron sign. Anything. I can probably cobble together, or hand paint, any markings found. Mike
This is a bit of a challenge, though mostly because my memory is like a sieve. Divisional sign was the 79 Division sign. Sub-units were loaned out all over 21AG as I am sure you know, but they wouldn't have repainted for that. If you look at SquireBev's website for armoured divs and scroll down you will see info on the arm of service sign. Anything else... hrm... I'll have to look at some books to see if they say anything. PS keep in mind, often the markings actually visible on tanks in the field were minimal compared to what they were officially supposed to have.
I had a look at one of my 1/48 Crocodile kits but it only showed the divisional emblem in the decal instructions.
Some info here on 141st RAC Regiment Crocodiles with a few names and census numbers. 141 RAC Regiment Crocodiles
And some discussion here about - were markings applied to the trailers? Missing-Lynx-Churchill Crocodile AOS
Have you seen / studied these? THE BRITISH ARMY IN FRANCE 1944 B9683 : Object description - A Churchill Crocodile flame-throwing tank during a demonstration, 25 August 1944. BRITISH FLAME THROWING TANK B9684 : Object description - Original wartime caption: Three-quarter view of tank and trailer. THE BRITISH ARMY IN FRANCE 1944 B9685 : Object description - A Churchill Crocodile flame-throwing tank during a demonstration, 25 August 1944. Close-up of the fuel trailer. THE BRITISH ARMY IN FRANCE 1944 B9686 : Object description - A Churchill Crocodile flame-throwing tank in action during a demonstration, 25 August 1944. BRITISH FLAME THROWING TANK B9687 BRITISH FLAME THROWING TANK B9688 THE BRITISH ARMY IN FRANCE 1944 B9689 : Object description - Churchill Crocodile flame-throwing tanks in action during a demonstration, 25 August 1944. It's always a contrast between freshly painted, almost "on parade" to items "working in the field" or photographed from angles which deliberately are intended to omit recognition details. -- x -- Analysis: Operational use of Churchill Crocodile flame throwers, NW Europe, June-October 1944
Thanks very much Chris and Ramilies. The Crocodile is popular enough to have many photographs but very few of markings. It seems that there are few places to actually put markings. The front trackguard is about the only place and that seems to have seldom survived in service. One thing I see is what I assume is the troop number on the turret rear and the rear of the trailer. There is not much room to put a census number, under the air intake seems the only place and that is not often visible. The turret is often covered in netting or stowage and Churchills seem to throw more mud than other tracked vehicles. Strictly speaking they should have an arm of service marking if only for traffic control purposes. I suppose they do not often travel in convoy on the main traffic axis except on transporters, in which case the transporters markings are the relevant ones. Thanks again. Mike.
This was "on" Twitter... Similarly... There are also examples on there of people's models with how they have chosen to mark them up. In a sense, I guess, since it's yours you can artistically go for what you, yourself think "fits" best, until someone finds a war diary entry, for example, or someone's hand written or typed notes on how they were "supposed to be". There almost seems to have been a pride though in individuality and what I guess could be called customisation. Perhaps there were vehicles with everything on them that there ought to be, and with everything in the right place but "these above" are in Museums or are drawn from specific, individual examples, rather than what was "normal" or was most typically "seen".
Unfortunately the links I posted on that ML thread are now dead, but I've since found that one of the markings on SANDLING's trailer, in addition to the tank's WD number T173174/H, is 141 RAC's Mobilisation Serial Number 29526 and not 25526 as I erroneously thought at the time (note: the source of each image below, when known, is in the file name): Other markings may include the Squadron symbol and Troop number on the turret, as on SENTRY here: or on STALLION: SEALION also has the Sqn/Tp symbol at the rear of the trailer: This one has 79 Armd Div Fmn Sign (the "white" inverted triangle), Sqn/Tp and tank WD number, plus a sign "26" whose meaning escapes me: The 26 might simply be a way to identify the individual trailer, because a similar number (30 this time) also appears at the same location on this one. Note the Allied star on the Crocodile's turret: This might also be the explanation for this strange marking 50, which, if it were an AoS number, would mean HQ 30 Armd Bde (which did not have Crocs), in contradiction with the MSN 29526 denoting 141 RAC: Another example of how 79 Armd Div Fmn Sign often appears as overall white on photos: At least some trailers had the Bridge Class number 7 on the front offside of the trailer as on SPRINTER's: Some had cartoon characters painted by their name: The AoS is not often seen on photos. Here are two examples, both of 141 RAC's vehicles. First is Humber scout car STORK: Second is Churchill ARV SEEKER. Note that the name is both on the glacis plate and on the side of the infantry ride just ahead of the air intake. Note also the "A" Sqn symbol on the side and the Aliied Star on top of the infantry ride (no turret so...), and the Bridge Class number 36. The horizontal bars above the MSN might be a rare occurrence of the POM code bars (but there should be 3 bars), or the waterproofing bars: Finally, some had the tank callsign painted at the rear of the trailer (not sure which unit is show here). Callsign 1A: Callsign 4 (4 Tp Leader's): Callsign 4A: Callsign 4B: Michel
Well done Michel. A lot of information to think about there. Crocodiles certainly seem to be short of colourful markings and all have the troop number/call signs in several locations. I suppose that this is because of the nature of their tactical deployment, in small sub units, in close infantry support close to the enemy. I shall ponder on this. In the meantime I shall make some decals to match one of the Crocodiles shown. I have spent the last year looking at the Movement and Maintenace aspects of the BEF. It is some twenty years since I last looked at it. More later. Mike
I see that Crocodiles usually operated as part of an assault team or breaching team. They were to give close support to the other elements of the team using the main armament, and even closer support with the flame thrower. The flamethrower had a short range and was primarily used against pillboxes and other fortified positions. In action the Crocodiles wireless set was tuned to the breaching team net and each Crocodile carried a No 18 set for communication with infantry. This would explain the troop and individual vehicle call signs, enabling rapid communication with a specific vehicle instead of via troop/squadron etc. Crocodiles seem to have an extra aerial base for the 18 set. The numbers on trailers are probably so that each Crocodile will get its own trailer after a move. The trailers are usually only fitted to the Crocodile immediately befor an action. For long moves the tank moves on a transporter. Bridges are also a problem. The combined weight of tank and trailer is approaching 50 tons, above the weight limit for most bridges. Trailers are mentioned as being moved by artillery tractors or halftracks. Crews liked to have their own trailer of course. If they lavish care on it they do not want to end up with someon elses neglected equipment. I may of course have misread or misinterpreted the information I have. Mike
The transportation of Crocodile tank-trailer units by rail was tried out in the planning for D-Day. It was better that the trailer should be permanently connected and there may have been issues with the availability and/or suitability of road transporters. The main problem with loading a tank-trailer pair onto to a rail flat is the weight distribution with the tank being too heavy at one end of the wagon. A solution was to position the tank part onto the end of a warflat with another tank sharing the wagon whilst the trailer part was chocked down onto a ramp trailer. I had a long email discussion on this with a retired colonel. Here is my model of the untis in motion.
