Captain Jack Lee 14 Medium Regt RA D-Day+1

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Emanuel1940, Jan 24, 2013.

  1. Adrian Lee

    Adrian Lee Member

    Thanks Arty
    I accept your arguments and have modified the chapter in my memoirs to take in all I have learnt from these last two weeks of following the three threads. The other remarkable outcome is that I have become in contact with the sons of Captain Alastair Bannerman and the son of Captain Peter Waterworth. i.e Sons of three of the six officers you list above, seventy three years later, are in communication. I will be sending them my revised chapter and will be talking with them over the next few days.

    Adrian
     
  2. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Arty,

    I feel a little uncomfortable with your post. It is a little dogmatic to dismiss Burgess' account as "confused hearsay or a complete fabrication." It is disingenuous to then claim that Jack was a hero, while arguing that he did not die the heroic death that his brother officer reported!

    It is difficult to reconstruct the events of a battle. Wellington is quoted as saying that "one can no more recount the events of a battle than of a ball." The late professor Richard Holmes, used to talk about how his experience visiting 1 PWRR on operations in 2005 taught him a big lesson. He, a professional historian was interviewing soldiers immediately after an action. The stories were confused and key actors and events were ignored - because everyone assumed that everyone knew. E.g all the PWRR accounts ignored the contribution of the CO of the Argyll's who happened to be passing, Holmes tracked down the story - which appears in Dusty Warriors and Sniper one. These were events that took place in a small war recorded in more detail, by modern media and analysed by one of our best military historians with access to most of the actors. That is not true of the events of 7th June 1944.

    We cannot assume that Jack Lee was not firing his Bren gun from the vehicle as reported. It is one of a series of interpretations of the events of that day. This is not a criminal investigation nor do we need to prove one particular interpretation.

    While letters to next of kin often included euphemisms and white lies to spare their feelings, it would have been foolhardy of Burgess to fabricate the story in its entirety. We don't know who passed the story of Lee firing a Bren gun or their source. It is hearsay, and less reliable than other forms of evidence.

    Sure Lee had injuries consistent with those inflicted by a mine on the driver's side of the vehicle. Do we know for certain that these were inflicted by a mine and not, by say solid shot outside the vehicle? Do we know as a fact that he did not fire before the mine detonated?

    It is unlikely but not impossible for Lee to have been riding in the back, but suppose he was standing in the co- driver's seat. The tilt was only canvas and could be rolled back. In a forward area it would make sense to have someone able to look over the armoured side, and the co-driver is the best person to do so. The canvas cover at the rear needs to stay on to avoid losing comms through a rain shower.

    One of George Macdonald Fraser's short stories "Whisky and the Music" (In The General Danced at Dawn) tells a great truth about Regimental history. Piper Findleyson was playing "Cock O' the North" in the action for which he was awarded the VC, because the RSM said so. Captain Burgess wrote that Jack Lee was last firing a Bren Gun heroically on a much stronger basis. He knew his brother officer and had spoken to the Warwicks at the time. Regimental History will be kind to the story of Jack Lee.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
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  3. Arty

    Arty Member

    Sheldrake,

    What was that contemptuous statement of yours? “It is disingenuous to then claim that Jack was a hero, while arguing that he did not die the heroic death that his brother officer reported!”

    Capt Jack Lee went ashore on 06Jun44, he then moved forward with the Warwicks as they moved and fought their way inland. On 07Jun44 he was mortally wounded whilst in action with the Warwicks at Lebisey. Capt Jack Lee was a hero, as were the other members of his party - no matter their rank or role - whether or not they were firing a bren gun or driving a halftrack.

    Have you actually ready the extracts of the letters written by Capt Lee’s Ack? Although I suppose Harry Hyde was only a mere Acting Lance Bombardier at the time. Hardly a human being compared to an officer of the RA, hey Sheldrake?

    Yep, never let facts get in the way of a good story.

    And what’s this? “This is not a criminal investigation nor do we need to prove one particular interpretation.” And yet you are always so forthcoming with your view of history. And so, now, nothing can be proved, unless of course it’s you trying to lecture people?

    But of course this entire fantastic forum is all about digging deeper into historic events. On a parallel thread there is a discussion about the identification of bodies exhumed from the Lebisey area for reburial in formal cemeteries. A lot like a criminal investigation, actually.

    There is nothing to change in what I said in post #21 of this thread. If however I find, or am presented with, more evidence of substance in respect of Capt Lee’s death I will share it.

    Sheldrake, you are just being over protective of the ‘glory’ of your beloved Regiment.

    Arty
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  4. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    No. I am choosing to take a generous interpretation of the memory of a man who wore my cap badge and gave his life for his country and our freedom.
     
  5. Arty

    Arty Member

    Michel,

    Yep B5011 shows us a M14 - FFW ie. Fitted For Wireless - I humbly apologise for using the term “Fitted For Radio” in post #20 – I should have of course used the archaic terminology. ;)

    It might just be a COBU M14 in the pic. However B5011 was taken approx 2100 hours on 06June, hence it’s more likely that most, or all, of the COBU M14’s were further inland by this time - aside from the fact that a plethora of units used the M14 as a signals vehicle.

    Meanwhile I suggested in post #20 that A24353 depicts “what appears to be a No. 18 Wireless Set at the left rear ie. back of the M14”. However, the radio equipment just seen in the pic (using the modern word "radio" with ‘gay abandon’) was probably a No. 22 Wireless Set (ie. more powerful, longer range and vehicle mounted).

    The reports by the commanders of Force G, J and S all have some useful info on FOB activities on and after 06June.

    The M14 gets a mention in the “REPORT BY THE NAVAL COMMANDER FORCE “G””, specifically in, “ANNEXURE 5 TO APPENDIX “C”…SUPPORT OF THE ARMY AFTER THE ASSAULT THROUGH FORWARD OBSERVERS BOMBARDMENT” - more specifically on page 50 in paragraph 7 (d):

    “(ii) The Brigade Vehicle.- The M.14 Half Track (International) is suitable for it’s purpose in many
    respects but suffers from the following disadvantages. It is very high ; it is extremely awkward to
    get in and out of ; it is unmanoeuvrable ; it does a very low mileage per gallon and is consequently
    not independent of supplies….”

    On the subject of shore to ship communications there seems to have been a distinct difference of opinion on the performance of the No. 22 Wireless Set!

    From the Force J report: “FOsB were undoubtedly handicapped by the absence of their vehicles with more powerful Type 22 sets…”

    Whilst from the Force G report “The No.22 Wireless Set is neither sufficiently powerful nor sufficiently robust. A more powerful and a sturdier set is required for F.O.B.s.”

    Yipping Yuletide
    Arty
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  6. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    A 24350 is listed as "between coleville and Bieville" but looks to be on a forward slope. I reckon the other photos were taken somewhere close to point 61 just south south west of the Hillman HQ complex. in A 24341 you can see the whaleback wood to the left of the Y shaped tree. There is a bit that sticks up that fits with the water tower at Lebisey. I think point 61. On the right of the picture there is a line of fence posts that might match those on the D60 road.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  7. Charlotte Burgess

    Charlotte Burgess New Member

    I thank you for posting these photos- Geoff Burgess, later Major and MBE, was my grandpa. Tash and pipe in many of these photos!

     
  8. Adrian Lee

    Adrian Lee Member

    Charlotte
    What a wonderful thing. I am having contact with so many re my father Jo Lee. I have now had contact with the children of three of the four Captains who were taken prisoner at the same time my father was killed and have met four of them! I will send a scan of a letter your Grandfather sent to my mother after he had heard of Jo’s death. We must communicate. If you go to the website of my choir below you will find my email address.

    http://lavocelanecove.com/index

    Cheers

    Adrian
     
  9. Charlotte Burgess

    Charlotte Burgess New Member

    Sent an email! Keen to learn!
     
  10. Adrian Lee

    Adrian Lee Member

    Email not through yet. I look forward to it
    Adrian
     
  11. John Wilkes

    John Wilkes Member

    I wonder if somebody could point me in the right direction.

    My Uncle John J Wilkes (Service Number 5115460) died on Wednesday, June 7th 1944 in Normandy France. He is buried in BAYEUX WAR CEMETERY. I plan to pay my respects in June and also plan to attend the Royal Warwickshire Regiment - Lebisey Normandy Memorial The Official Unveiling Ceremony if possible.
    I understand 154 people died at the Battle of Lebisey Wood on June 7th 1944.
    The family rumour is that he was shot by a sniper while on a stretcher being carried from the Field of Action. I understand it would be near impossible to substantiate that but is there anywhere I can locate the names of those that fell that day?

    Many thanks
    John Wilkes
     
  12. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Hi, John,

    CWGC lists 29 R Warwicks fatalities on 7 June.

    That excludes any that may have been wounded on the day and died later.
     
  13. John Wilkes

    John Wilkes Member

    Many thanks Idler.

    As it seems the 2nd Battalion of The Royal Warwickshire was at Lebisey that day and he is on their list of fatalities for that day I think we can assume that this is where he lost his life. A trip from June 3rd to 8th to show he was not forgotten (even after 78 years) would be in order I think.
    26 years old. Doesn't seem right does it !!

    Again many thanks Idler

    John
     

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