Can I order Norman MacFie's service records without a death certificate?

Discussion in 'Royal Engineers' started by Kateryan, Apr 18, 2015.

  1. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Institution of Civil Engineers, London

    They will have membership logs going back over the years.
  2. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Most Engineers of a certain standard (it is a rather abused term these days - dustbin men are sometimes called Refuse Engineers) will need to have passed exams and to move on in their career will join a Professional Body, this also provides them with access to other Engineers, helps them find jobs and also supports them if there is a problem somewhere down the line.

    According to one of your posts he was a civil engineer, therefore he may have joined a Civil Engineers Society of some sort, somewhere.

    PS I dont see any info on your Gandmothers details, (name, dob etc) so if you can supply those we can look up and see what results we find.

  3. toki2

    toki2 Junior Member

    Kateryan I am sure you have thought of this, but have you tried different spellings of his name. We have had difficulty with my husbands family with varied spellings of the surname in birth, death and marriage certificates. This is turning out to be quite a quest and I wish you luck.
  4. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Yes have tried various spelling and misspellings, notably MacPhee, but again without any details about where in the world he died it is difficult to know where to start a search for him

  5. Kateryan

    Kateryan Member

    I still can't seem to find any more information on Norman after 1948. I have emailed the professional associations for engineers on both sides of the Atlantic though so maybe they'll have something.

    I just found out about the Scottish People website so I now have more info on Norman's mother's side of the family. I now know that Elizabeth Robertson Young was born in 1860. Her obituary listed her death in October of 1941 but no burial location was listed. I was hoping to find a Cemetary with burials for the family in hopes I could find Norman with them in New York. His sister Winifed died in NY in 1972 but no burial info for her either. The Scottish Aunt that Norman was visiting in Scotland died in Greenock in 1948 but I can't find any burial information for her either to see if Norman was buried in a family Cemetary in Scotland. Norman's grandfather William died in Greenock in 1910 but no burial info on him either.

    Unless I can find out more about possible family burials any other ideas where I might look to find out what happened to Norman?
  6. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Have you ruled out the electoral registers I posted up until 1965 post #20 ?? All addresses are still there unfortunately the registers released are only until 1965? If it appears that none of his family were aware of his death then what happened to his `estate`?? Is there not some requirement to advertise or publish for heirs/relatives??

  7. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    The only Elizabeth MacFie I can find on Ancestry that might fit the bill is as below in the Probate database:


    Name: Elizabeth Macfie
    Probate Date: 15 Apr 1940
    Death Date: 13 Jan 1940
    Death Place: London, England
    Registry: Manchester, England

    But the details shows that she died in a Nursing home in Perthshire

    This could be her birth cert:

    Name: Elizabeth Robertson Young
    Gender: Female
    Birth Date: 30 Oct 1859
    Birth Place: Tradeston,Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland
    Father: Andrew Young
    Mother: Margaret Buchanan
    FHL Film Number: 6035516

  8. DianeE

    DianeE Member

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  9. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    From the web site -

    Today there are nine clan societies associated with Clan Macfie. The societies are located around the world in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Scotland, Sweden, and the United States of America. An ongoing DNA project is being conducted to help discover the clan’s genetic roots and to determine how members with the same surname are related. Currently, (as of March 2008) there are 104 participants in the project. Of the 104 participants, there have been 33 separate bloodlines found. The largest bloodline, which consists of 23% of the total project, and also contains the line of the last McPhee on Colonsay, is currently thought to represent the original male line of Clan Macfie. The project website summarises that the majority of the 33 bloodlines are likely to be of “Celtic” descent.

  10. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

  11. Kateryan

    Kateryan Member

    That is the record for Elizabeth which I did just find after finding out about the Scottish records and they've been a tremendous help in finding more of the relatives. She actually died in NY per an obituary but I can't find a burial for the parents or any of the siblings in NY, except Alfred and the cemetery said he's the only MacFie there. Still no luck at all on Norman. The records stated that from 1948-2013 only two Norman MacFies had died and they both had wrong middle names. Is it pretty unusual to have no records of a more modern death? I'm surprised I cannot figure it out. I have also tried the MacFie Society as well.
  12. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    This one was mislabelled with the wrong name but it is for Norman Mcleod Macfie SS Beaverford interesting his profession in 1947 is `ARMY` It also gives 2 Kings Place Perth Scotland as his address. In the summary it is also listed port of departure Norfolk Virginia US yet the document states `Halifax` ?;-

    Norman Mackeed Macfie

    Birth Date:
    abt 1904


    Port of Departure:
    Norfolk, Virginia, United States

    Arrival Date:
    1 Jun 1947

    Port of Arrival:
    Cardiff, Wales

    Ship Name:
    Manchester Commerce

    Search Ship Database:
    Search for the Manchester Commerce in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database

    Shipping line:
    Manchester Liners Ltd

    Official Number:


    Attached Files:

  13. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Another `misspelling` but I think you are aware of this journey? Interesting on this though because hes listed as a `CANADIAN ARMY OFFICER` ??? If he transferred his British Records will, I doubt, record nothing other than his transfer nothing after that as the Canadians will then hold the records after that?


    Attached Files:

  14. DianeE

    DianeE Member

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  15. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Well found Diane

    What is interesting is that in April 1946 he is shown in the LG as Captain, and yet on the shipping manifest on 8 March 1946 he is shown as a Major, I know that it can take sometime to show in the Gazette but it seems fairly quick. I also note on the manifest that his name is struck through and the name of Winifred MacFie of Toronto is written in its place, - so who actually travelled?????

    Would there not be an LG entry for him going from Captain to Major??

  16. DianeE

    DianeE Member

    Thanks TD.
    This manifest is the second page and the heading of the column is - nearest relative or friend living in the country the alien came from...............................
    So N M Macfie was the passenger and his name was entered in erroron the second page.

    I haven't found an LG to say he was promoted to Major. I wonder if this was a mistake considering he was given the rank of Captain on relinquishing his commission.
    (Though I am normally rubbish at finding things in the Gazette)

  17. Kateryan

    Kateryan Member

    I did have the travel from Singapore but not the listing as Capt. I have no idea about ranks so I have no idea what this means but it seems strange given his manifests which list Major. At first I was confused by the Canadian manifest too and wondered if he had joined up in Canada but I think they must have written Canadian in because he was going to Canada to visit his sister. In another record it looks like he might be working for Canadian Bank but I can't be sure if it's not a record for a passenger listed above him. It does seem strange to me that he spent so much time in the USA and UK and goes from carpenter to engineer to working for a bank in Canada though but maybe that explains why he was traveling so much after the war. I think it looks like he was stationed in India during the wa. Here are my notes on his travels:

    D.o.b. 1903-1904
    Immigrated USA 1912
    NY 1940 Census
    Bombay? 1943 or 1947

    Arrival 10/24/1943
    Greenock, Scotland to NY
    Queen Mary
    Passage paid: member British Army
    Passport issued Phil., PA 1/16/43

    Arrival 3/8/1946
    Singapore to NY
    (Lightly in pencil Canadian) Army Officer (darker in pen) Major
    Traveling under orders
    Last permanent residence:
    Toronto, Canada--crossed out for Washington, D.C.
    Nearest relative Winifred, Northlane Ave., Toronto
    Final destination: Washington D.C.
    But in transit to Canada
    Passage paid by British War Office

    Arrival Liverpool from NY
    Proposed address England: 2 Lombard St., London EC3 c/o Canadian Bank Commerce
    Army Officer India

    Arrival 8/31/1946
    Glasgow to NY
    Civil Engineer
    Permanent residence USA

    Arrival 9/10/1946
    Glasgow to NY
    Civil Engineer
    Last permanent residence NY
    Aunt Susan to Winifred NY
    Passage paid by British government
    Discharged as Major 6/25/1946 British Government
    NY 1912-1942
    1944-1945; 1946 D.C.
    Intends to become US citizen

    Arrival 6/1/1947
    Norfolk, VA to Cardiff, Wales
    Civil Engineer
    Listed England as proposed permanent residence and previous permanent residence
    Proposed address 2 King James Pl., Perth, Scotland

    Arrival 7/21/1947
    Liverpool, England to NY, USA
    Visiting Aunt Susan and back to Winifred
    Civil Engineer

    Arrival 5/31/1948
    St. John, New Brunswick Canada to Manchester, England
    Civil Engineer
    Country of permanent residence USA
    Visiting 3 Castle Rock, Gourock, Scotland

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