Can anyone ID these uniforms?

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Eairicbloodaxe, Jun 19, 2014.

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  1. Hi There


    I'm usually mainly into WW1 stuff, so apologies for not knowing my way around here.

    I've been asked to research this photo. All we know is it was sent by a serviceman to his sweetheart, and is believed to have been taken in Belgium somewhere. We don't even know which one in the photo is the beau!

    If taken in Belgium, I'm guessing that means it must be post 1944. Apart from that, we have no real clue. I "think" I can see a badge that looks vaguely like paratroops on the shoulder of the guy extreme left? And there's one wearing a leather jerkin two in from him - does it look like that might have something written on the front of it?

    All suggestions gratefully received.

    Kind regards




    Ian
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Ian,

    I have enlarged the photo, but the Quality deteriorates.

    There are at least four members of the Group who appear to have Para Wings on shoulder.

    There is a mixture of uniform Shirts and a lot have ties which indicates post war.

    Sorry I cannot be of more help.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  3. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    Hello Ian and welcome to the forum.

    "Paratroop badges" look like RAF shoulder flashes. Also what looks like wireless operator badges on some sleeves.

    Have a look here and see what you think. Royal Air Force Insignia

    Regards

    Richard
     
  4. Thanks for quick responses, I knew someone would know. Could easily be the RAF badge from that link.

    Am trying to get hold of a better quality scan which I will post up.

    Any other way of telling if the uniforms are RAF or army? From the cut? Pockets? Field cap shape?


    Regards



    Ian
     
  5. OK, Bigger pic has arrived...

    Same questions as before. Thanks in advance, again.

    One other Q... are any of them obviously a Pilot Officer?


    Regards



    Ian
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

  7. Hi Tom


    Thanks for that. Yes, I see what you mean... does look like the RAF Field Cap.

    On the clearer photo you can see the eagles on both shoulders of some of the men.

    Can any one else help with a guess at the unit, type of ranks etc? Pilots? Ground crew? Training course?


    Kind regards




    Ian
     
  8. Combover

    Combover Guest

    That's army battledress and I would say it was wartime as there are no postwar patterns of BD in that shot.

    Edit: To avoid confusion, I know these men are RAF, but they're not wearing RAF BD.
     
  9. chick42-46

    chick42-46 Senior Member

    HI Eairicbloodaxe

    Can I ask why you think this was taken in Belguim? Is there anything on the back, maybe? Knowing where but, most importantly, when, it was taken will help.

    On the assumption that this was taken in Belguim - so post-June 1944, I can say what type of unit this isn't. The RAF Regiment were issued with berets before then, so the side caps would go against this unit being a Regiment squadron. In addition, no one has "mudguards" on their shoulders - so, again, not Regiment.

    No one has wings or half-wings on the breast - so not aircrew.

    That then leaves any other RAF ground personnel you can think of!

    There are no officers present - just a sergeant, a corporal and some LACs, plus a bunch of airmen. Two chaps have good conduct chevrons (lower left sleeve), which indicates a period of service (don't know how long but it might be 3 years to earn one chevron) - so not new recruits. No one has medal ribbons on their battledress, so I'd say the war was still ongoing or hadn't long ended when the picture was taken.

    I can't see any trade badges at all - no lightning bolts for instance, to indicate this might be a radar or other signals unit.

    Other than that - I can't help!

    Cheers and good luck

    Ian
     
  10. snailer

    snailer Country Member

    Hello
    I concur with Ian; mostly LACs, some with a good conduct chevron and a couple of Sgts, can't see any Officers, all non-flyers as no Pilot's wings or half wing brevets of other trades. The leather jerkin was ground crew issue, they are possibly refuellers or maintenance crew. As there is no white flash in their caps they are not under training.
    Would like to know why people think it's Army and not RAF BD as it looks like it to me, what was the difference?

    Rgds

    Pete
     
  11. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    The battledress being khaki rather than blue. It was common for RAF personnel to wear khaki B/D in North West Europe.
     
  12. snailer

    snailer Country Member

    Come on Lee, it's a black and white photo! I thought you might have said the pockets are bigger or the collars are smaller or something like that.
     
  13. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    The RAF badges wouldnt stand out so clearly if the cloth of the battledress was RAF blue rather than Khaki.
     
  14. Thank you so much for the answers. Brilliant info.

    OK, another quick Q for you.

    I know this goes back in time, but I believe that one of the gentlemen in this photo is the same as in the pictures I'm posting below.

    The new one is him in 1918... at 19

    Can you see him in the group photo? In that one he would be 45 to 46 years old.

    I know he was recalled in 1940 as a Pilot Officer, so by 1944 what rank might he have achieved? In between war civvy life he was an insurance agent.

    Kind regards




    Ian


    SRN uniform.jpg
    SRN and plane.jpg
     
  15. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Ian,
    Interesting point - if he was WW1 aircrew and served in a ground role in WW2 would he have had his wings up on his WW2 uniform?
     
  16. Hi All


    Still looking for more/definitive info, if anyone else has an opinion or can help that would be great.

    In WW1 he had maybe only 5 or 6 months into which to fit any actual flying experience. He served in 80 squadron, which I believe had Sopwith Camels at that time. Not sure he ever flew again between the wars, so maybe the RAF quickly realised that at age 41 he was unlikely to make a decent pilot? Must have been very different skill flying a Camel than even the most basic WW2 trainer types.


    Regards



    Ian

    PS. Still looking for guesses to confirm mine on which one is him in the group photo!
     
  17. In reply to Chick42-46 and their question:

    Can I ask why you think this was taken in Belguim? Is there anything on the back, maybe? Knowing where but, most importantly, when, it was taken will help.

    Simply heresay, I'm afraid - the person who supplied the photo mentioned that her Grandma said it was taken in Belgium and showed "her soldier".

    As we now know he's RAF not army, Belgium could also be incorrect. Maybe she meant came with a Belgian postmark?

    No marks on the back as far as I know, and the only person who could tell us any more, is no longer with us,


    Regards




    Ian
     
  18. chick42-46

    chick42-46 Senior Member

    Hi Mike L

    I'm afraid I don't know but, unless he'd stayed on in the RAF in the inter-war period, or somehow kept up his flying (through a club or the reserve), then I imagine his WW1 service wouldn't have counted for much. In any event, if he wasn't in an aircrew job, what would be the point in having wings on his BD?


    That's a tricky one - he'd be over 20 years older. I have trouble anyway working out how old people are in WW2 photos - they look so much older than you expect. But if I was to have a stab at it, the chap in the middle row, far left might possibly be your man.

    Cheers

    Ian
     
  19. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Wings are a qualification badge so it's still possible to wear them when in a ground crew role. This is the current official stance regarding wings:

    "An officer, on ceasing to be employed on flying duties, and an airman on being remustered to a ground trade, unless ordered
    otherwise, may elect to wear any of the badges for which he has been previously qualified."

    Lee
     
  20. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Ian, probably the best thing to do is apply for the chap's WW2 service records from the MoD. And if you have a name and date of birth of someone else in the photograph as well, apply for his records as well. That way you'll know if they have any overlapping service in the same unit. Then a check of the Operations Record Book would show where and what they were up to.

    Lee
     

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