CALM Discussion of the Eastern Front.

Wotcha PP. Still cute. I think he means that we are to discuss and argue it in a calm manner, not all jump on top of Jimbo and give him a kicking.

 

Wotcha PP. Still cute. I think he means that we are to discuss and argue it in a calm manner, not all jump on top of Jimbo and give him a kicking.

Roger that! But I take it we aren't allowed to do that no matter how antagonistic anyone gets, huh?

Some people don't know the benefits of 'stress relief'

 

Not allowed on this thread mate. It says CALM in the title. You must argue in acontrolled and precise manner. Jumping on and relieving stress through a good kicking is for other threads.

 

Not allowed on this thread mate. It says CALM in the title. You must argue in acontrolled and precise manner. Jumping on and relieving stress through a good kicking is for other threads.

I can say in a very calm manner that we're dealing here with an uneducated loony. Besides, seems to me that Pilot did try to argue with him in a controled and precise manner. Unfortunately, some people are beyond redemption.

 

Several postings have been reported and deleted from this thread. However, it seems that it has turned into a all out offensive on Jimbo.

Please return to the topic of this thread.

Is the Moderators policy to blame the victims and exhonerate the perpetrators?

Look at this and other threads in the same group and honestly say there is not a pattern of harassment. This behaviour is clearly trolling, and I see that the disturbing element is protected by those who should be acting on it, quite the opposite what a normal moderator would do.

The problem is not only the troll, it is also those who give him shelter.

 

Interesting compilation of post-debate conversation. Immediately after a few statements of false-nobility pontificating some non-existent martyrdom from having your view challenged, up comes childish retorts of labeling people with opinions that are both different than yours, and opinions you are intolerant of, as trolls.

If I made statements that were not true, then I could see that you find such discourse unpleasant. But, if I make statements that you simply can't refute and can't tear down, and that because they are common sense, this is something that necessitates name calling statements of baseless and hypocritical criticism.

Top this with the crying to administrators because you wish to be the only cook in the kitchen when you can't stand the heat. Shamelessly thinking that getting your opponents point of view squashed is your last resort to salvage some kind of dignity. All of this while ignoring that admins more frequently regulate childish name calling than objective and opposing views that happen to be antagonistic to your opinion, that doesn't hold water. If you can't stand a challenge to your radical opinions then why even post them?

I believe PMs are for private discussions. Anything you post on the forum is far game. Maybe if you preface your statement with “This is my own view and it is very fragile. Please do not deconstruct it with logic” then you will have fewer antagonists posting views, views you are not comfortable enough with nor confident enough to tolerate or ignore.

 

If I made statements that were not true, then I could see that you find such discourse unpleasant. But, if I make statements that you simply can't refute and can't tear down, and that because they are common sense, this is something that necessitates name calling statements of baseless and hypocritical criticism.

It has been repeatedly pointed out to you that your opinions are at best stretching logic or truth and at worst complete b#####ks. Not by one or two but practically everyone. Sometimes when you are the only one with a certain opinion, it is because you are the one who is in error and should really concider that everyone else may not be wrong.

It is you that comes out with childish retorts whern you can no longer make your arguments stand.

I for one am becoming very bored with your blinkered views and lacking knowledge. Niether of which need to be a handicap as long as being flexible is an option. With you that is not the case. I'm afraid that you show those traits that have given your countrymen a bad reputation around europe and many other parts of the world, traits I know are not universal but once encountered not easily forgotten.

 

Anything you post on the forum is far game. Maybe if you preface your statement with “This is my own view and it is very fragile. Please do not deconstruct it with logic” then you will have fewer antagonists posting views, views you are not comfortable enough with nor confident enough to tolerate or ignore.

This bit I really did find funny. "Do not deconstruct with logic?" Almost every argument you have made on here has been deconstructed with logic by several people. And yet you remain blind to the flaws in your views.

I'm sorry, but for you to think that anyone else should prefix their statements with "Do not deconstruct with logic?" because you may try to pick it appart is just so foolish it's laughable. It is more likely that most people on this forum would expect you to prefix your wild claims with that phrase.

 

Of course it never occurs to you that before the usual senseless ranting from our local uneducated loony, the thread was fine. Funny that the people who were trying to seriously discuss the topic are the ones asked to return to it.

This describes you Exxley to a T, I have learned nothing from your always negative comments. You never start a thread and never provide any technical data or tactical examples to prove points. Maybe a few common Orders of Battle, the most recent one in a negative manner towards Gott. You never discuss anything.

 

This describes you Exxley to a T, I have learned nothing from your always negative comments. You never start a thread and never provide any technical data or tactical examples to prove points. Maybe a few common Orders of Battle, the most recent one in a negative manner towards Gott. You never discuss anything.

Lets say that our clown seems to have some reading problem hence why he kept whining about the same stuff. Note that the had also proved that he was utterly unable of learning anything and that his knowledge of WW2 was shaky to say the least.

Btw is there some hidden meaning in this :

Maybe a few common Orders of Battle, the most recent one in a negative manner towards Gott.

Maybe poor Oberst can actually quote how I meant something negative toward Gott ?

 

Interesting compilation of post-debate conversation. Immediately after a few statements of false-nobility pontificating some non-existent martyrdom from having your view challenged, up comes childish retorts of labeling people with opinions that are both different than yours, and opinions you are intolerant of, as trolls.

If I made statements that were not true, then I could see that you find such discourse unpleasant. But, if I make statements that you simply can't refute and can't tear down, and that because they are common sense, this is something that necessitates name calling statements of baseless and hypocritical criticism.

Top this with the crying to administrators because you wish to be the only cook in the kitchen when you can't stand the heat. Shamelessly thinking that getting your opponents point of view squashed is your last resort to salvage some kind of dignity. All of this while ignoring that admins more frequently regulate childish name calling than objective and opposing views that happen to be antagonistic to your opinion, that doesn't hold water. If you can't stand a challenge to your radical opinions then why even post them?

I believe PMs are for private discussions. Anything you post on the forum is far game. Maybe if you preface your statement with “This is my own view and it is very fragile. Please do not deconstruct it with logic” then you will have fewer antagonists posting views, views you are not comfortable enough with nor confident enough to tolerate or ignore.

The claim that the British beaches were uncontested during the Normandy landing is enough to make the above lenghty garbage from our uneducated loony laughable to say the least. Maybe he should be the one to preface his statements with "This is my own view and I dont know anything about WW2".

 

You refer to Unpleasant Discourse "Russia is a scumbag Nation". Well there's one for a start.

In another thread you laughed at the Concept of Glantz stating that the idea that the Red Army couldnt perform Evelopment operations was somewhere between myth and reality, yet when examples are given you respond that "Russia was the Home Team".

I have never seen you back down once even when given proof or examples of something. You cant have a debate Jimbo. All you can do is "Tell it like it is". You arent interested in alternative points of view and when faced with a challenge you come up with "I can lead a horse to water but I cant make then drink".

We're not ganging up on you and as for this "crying to the Administrators" well I certainly reported you for your post about Russia and Iran and calling the Russians "scumbags" and as long as you keep posting statements like that I'll keep reporting you. Statements like that are the reason people are leaving this forum and its not Debate, its you ramming your opinions down people's throats. So yeah, as long as you refer to the Russian people in that tone there'll be reports sent to the Mods. Deal with it.

Oberst has taken Exxley to task over the fact that he never produces Orders of Battle or discusses tactics. Likewise I'm still waiting for Jimbo to do the same. Maybe if we didnt spend so much time deconstructing Jimbos posts Oberst, we might actually be in a position to do this. The reason I keep responding to Jimbo is that I fear that a neutral logging on to this board will look at those posts and leave here with a bad view of this place or worse a completely distorted view of the Eastern Front because of prejudiced views by one poster. If you look at Exx's posts in areas where he is not refuting Jimbo his posts are positive and contribute to the knowledge base of the board.

 

Could I add a bit of balance here. In a way of stopping any thoughts that we are ganging up on one person because of the polotics of their views.

Lots of people post to counter what Jimbo says. On several of his views but in this case his views on the Eastern Front. If it was because of a political viewpoint we would all have been offering 'Stalin' (the now banned anti west poster) a firm hand shake and a lot of support. But no. Both him and Jimbo are seen by the majority to be posting incorrect statements. Different ends of the spectrum, but incorrect and without evidence to support the views and with a blank refusal to accept other views when supported by such evidence.

So it's not polotics that gets you noticed in the wrong way, it's incorrect viewpoints stated as fact with no supporting evidence. And to be honest, that is the way it should be or we might as well just forget a factual forum and post nothing but our dreams and fantasies.

 

This has just turned into another thread like the other one with a lot of personal attacks. I am going to close this thread and let everyone cool down, I may reopen at a later date after this has come to pass.

:mfr_closed2:

 

This info puts into perspective how important the eastern front really was.

Percentage Of German Forces On The Eastern Front Each Year

Unit1941194219431944 Divisions67%75%60%57% Troops84%74%72%40% Aircraft64%65%42%45%

 

Well posted Geoff and the facts state the obvious - That the Eastern Front was THE most important Front to the Heer and Luftwaffe. most of its order of battle was deployed and ultimately destroyed here. It was a Front unlike any other in terms of men deployed, Losses taken and material used.

But whilst I stress again the importance of the Eastern Front in the overall context of the war, I in no way belittle the contribution of the Western, Atlantic and Mediterranean Fronts in Bringing down the forces of the Third Reich and ending hte war in Europe. This thread had potential and should be used in a positive way. Someone pose a question and lets talk about it - it doesnt have to be an in depth question or an all encompassing one - just if anyone wants to know anything about the war in the East, pose a question and lets bring our knowledge base to bear on this most fascinating of campaigns - the war in the East. Now who's up for the first question??

 

Whilst reading 'The Generalship of Alexander the Great' a few years back by Major General J.F.C Fuller (Classical History is my real speciality), I remember a very interesting final chapter where the invasion of Russia by the Germans in WWII is compared to the invasion of the Eastern world by Alexander.

The gist of it was something like this:
Alexander attacked a huge Persian nation that ruled over millions of previously conquered subjects all ruled almost like seperate nations by local governers. But the actual 'farmer in the field' could not care less who ruled him, as long as there was peace and their individual lot in life was a happy one. Who they paid their taxes to was irrelevant. Sound similar to the Soviet nation in the 40s? The Polish, Ukranian, Beleo-russian etc etc. peasant just wanted security.
Alexander realised this fundamental situation and once armies were defeated he assimilated the conquered foe into his own armies and carried on ruling the peasants in the same way as they had been ruled before. He had success. That was why he was 'Great' (forget that awful film recently with that blokes dreadful Irish accent and dyed hair).
Hitler however steam rollered in and subjected the peasant populations of the Ukraine, Poland etc... to awful depravity and hardship thereby forcing the peasant to choose between the lesser of the two evils (Stalin). If the Germans had thrown their racial idealism out of the window for just that one campaign and sought the alliance of the peasants they had overran, who knows what the outcome could have been. I think that was Fullers point.

Just something to think on. Something like that. It was a long time ago and the books in my loft now!!! Well worth a read though.

Millsy

Ps. From reading this thread i now have a picture of a Kung-Fu like Grasshopper character for Von-poop! Filled with inner calm and the ability to walk on rice-paper!

 

This info puts into perspective how important the eastern front really was.

Percentage Of German Forces On The Eastern Front Each Year

1194219431944 Divisions67%75%60%57% Troops84%74%72%40% Aircraft64%65%42%45%

Apologies that this spread did not lock. A better guide below.


Percentage Of German Forces On The Eastern Front Each Year
Unit ,,,,,,,,,,,,,1941... 1942 ...1943 ..1944
Divisions ,,,,,,,,67% ...75% ...60% ...57%
Troops ,,,,,,,,,,,84%... 74% ...72% ...40%
Aircraft ,,,,,,,,,,64% ....65% ...42% ...45%

 

Hitler however steam rollered in and subjected the peasant populations of the Ukraine, Poland etc... to awful depravity and hardship thereby forcing the peasant to choose between the lesser of the two evils (Stalin). If the Germans had thrown their racial idealism out of the window for just that one campaign and sought the alliance of the peasants they had overran, who knows what the outcome could have been. I think that was Fullers point.

Millsy

This may seem simplistic however the old adage still applies.

"You will get more with honey than with vinegar."

Much of Stalins atrocities to his own people were hidden, people were picked up and just disappeared, much like the "innocents" in Argentina.

The German atrocities towards the conquered peoples of the Soviet Union were open and harsh and Hitler therefore lost the opportunity to bring them into the fold of the third reich.