Buried as Unknown

Discussion in 'War Cemeteries & War Memorial Research' started by dbf, Oct 17, 2011.

  1. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    There's no getting around the fact that commemoration on a Memorial must have been and surely still remains distressing to family. The very idea that there is no known grave, may be no grave anywhere, might be a grave somewhere still not located, or may in fact have never been a need for a grave, leaves emotions hanging. It doesn't take much imagination to work out why or how identification would be impossible.

    CWGC only identify in Cemetery Reports the numbers of graves which are of unidentified personnel. They do not list Grave refs. I've tried to plot out possible locations of Unknowns for a few cemeteries here, by comparing the plan with the graves which have been listed in Cemetery Reports, and fully admit that this is an amateurish effort.

    I do not wish to start a debate about raising false hopes. However, there are surely occasions when relatives have visited both a memorial and a cemetery and quietly and very unofficially 'adopted' an Unknown as representative of their loved one. I'd like to think that most are capable of understanding the sentiment eg behind the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

    So is there a reason, other than possibly raising false hopes, why CWGC do not add details in their online records of such graves? Many of us have seen images of headstones with some sparse information, whether it be a date or a Unit or indeed a rank, and I wonder why these at least could not have been added. Has anyone ever had a conversation with CWGC representative about this issue?

    --

    On foot of this, I was also wondering if there would be any point in asking those who visit cemeteries, whether regularly or on a personal pilgrimage, to please take a photo and note of the grave ref and to add it here - or, perhaps esp. if there is any extra detail noted on the stone. (If the plot no. isn't known, could a photo be taken of it with the nearest named burial?)

    I stress that this is not intended to be a means of offering false hope of identification, merely to recognise that they are not just statistics in a report and are tangible evidence of some family's loss; and, to highlight the fact that there is always more to be learnt by visiting these cemeteries in person.

    Please let me know if you think this idea is worthwhile or indeed too controversial.

    Many thanks
    D

    One of the Unknown Irish Guards buried at Valkenswaard all of whom have date 17th September 1944. Photo courtesy of Commando
     

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  2. Philip Reinders

    Philip Reinders Very Senior Member

    I agree with you Diane, that's why I am working on my new site
     
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  3. Nicola_G

    Nicola_G Senior Member

    When I went to visit Douwe Drijver of the Stichting Missing Airmen Foundation they took us on a WW2 tour of the area and we stopped at a cemetery which had 8 WW2 RAF graves. The crash was recovered with 7 named crew (on the manifest) from the plane. However 8 bodies were found which related to the crash, so they believe that someone was travelling ingonito, perhaps a resistance person or someone else on a top secret mission. As you can see in the photos, they have had to squeeze the last grave in and its listed as Known only to God.
     

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  4. Buteman

    Buteman 336/102 LAA Regiment (7 Lincolns), RA

    I agree that it is worth continuing to investigate and keep looking.

    There are those who do so and this is one I'm aware of.

    Name: LAWRENCE, THOMAS JAMES
    Rank: Gunner
    Regiment/Service: Royal Artillery
    Unit Text: 62 Anti-Tank Regt.
    Age: 24
    Date of Death: 22/10/1944
    Service No: 1526924
    Additional information: Husband of Kathleen Durreen Lawrence, of Edmonton, Middlesex.
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 2.
    Memorial: GROESBEEK MEMORIAL

    Although commemorated on the Groesbeek Memorial, he actually went missing in North Belgium. Shot in the head whilst on a foot patrol, his colleagues had to withdraw under fire and when they later returned, his body was never found. My guide showed me the place where he went missing and told me that a number of attempts have been made to locate the remains, himself included, sadly without success.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Jedburgh22

    Jedburgh22 Very Senior Member

    In some cases even the date of death may be suspect - I have came across files where an arbitrary date is set though the actual date may have been months earlier.
     
  6. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    D
    You know my thoughts
    It is always worthwhile
     
  7. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    Here is another example. A Sergeant (Air Observer) of the RCAF at the New Easter cemetery in Amsterdam, who was killed on 14 October 1942. On this day 29 Canadian airmen were killed, from which 12 have got a known grave.
    But if they even know that he was an Air Observer..

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    The CWGC site seems to be very much aimed at families who want to know where a name is commemorated and that's it. It's not intended for researchers I suspect.

    That said, if viewed as a whole, with WW1 'unknowns' included plus presumably the majority of RN dead, the proportion of missings must be quite substantial and I can understand that they don't want to place too much emphasis on a place of burial. They need to promote the idea that a name on a memorial is a fully valued commemoration and not a second-class honour.
     
  9. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I come from this at both angles, not just cos I research. I have family whose graves are cared for by CWGC, but if they were on a memorial I'd at least like to know - before I went - if there were Unknowns identified as being from the same unit, buried in the vicinity. Just to pay my respects at something other than a name on a panel. People are curious and interested enough to visit areas of battles during their trips, so I see this as being no different.

    I know that cwgc will supply lists of cemeteries for particular units if you ask, so they do still help researchers in some way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but some temporary markers had KIA or DOW, and this data was subsequently 'removed' from public domain. I'd have to ask why they even bother with with partial details on a headstone then; could just as easily put the standard inscription on them all and keep the info on file and no-one would be any the wiser.

    It boils down to the unfairness of this really Rich: Only those who can visit would be able to note these types of commemorations, those who can't, tough !
     
  10. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Two unknown British soldier casualties (attached photos) from East Finchley,Cemetery,London.
    Buried 27th September 1940

    CWGC :: Cemetery Details
     

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  11. Philip Reinders

    Philip Reinders Very Senior Member

    if they are killed abroad in some cases I can understand this, but september 1940 London?, how is this possible
     
  12. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Hello Philip
    hopefully someone may have an answer

    regards
    Clive
     
  13. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    if they are killed abroad in some cases I can understand this, but september 1940 London?, how is this possible

    Given the date, could they have been killed in the Blitz?

    Best,

    Steve.
     

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