British Vehicle Markings - a rough guide

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by SquireBev, May 30, 2020.

  1. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Top chap, thank you.
     
  2. Hi,

    WW2 British Military Markings is a BIG subject, with many gaps in its history. And as already stated the most recent (and best researched) books are out of print and very expensive on the used books market. I unfortunately missed them when they came out...

    Back to the Armd Div NWE late war, I attach two charts showing the organisation of the Gds Armd Div. Chart 1 has the merit of showing the separation between Divisional Troops and the other units clearly.

    Basically, Div Tps were all units except the Armd Bde, the Inf Bde and the Armd Car Regt (att from Corps). In this version neither Div HQ nor Div Sigs are part of the Div Tps, whereas on some Inf Div listings they are (see attachments).

    A few more remarks on the Amrd Div chart:
    - Provost was part of CMP (Corps of Military Police)
    - Fd Pk Sqn was 42, while Fd Sqns where 46 & 41
    - Motor Battalion: I did forget to mention there were four companies (not Squadrons). Fortunately 8RB pointed that omission :)
    - The MG Coy was actually Indep MMG Coy (Independent Mortar and Machine Gun Company). Depending on the source it is shown as part of the Inf Bde or of Div Tps (e.g. the two attached charts for Gds Armd Div). I am not certain which is true, or whether this might have changed over time.

    Michel
     

    Attached Files:

    Charley Fortnum likes this.
  3. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    What is a "sensible price" ? Andrew self-published and I don't think he intended to become rich from it ! He may still have some. He's on here as 'May1940' but has been quiet of late as he's seriously working on a comprehensive BEF vehicles and Equipment guide.
     
  4. SquireBev

    SquireBev Well-Known Member

    Some useful stuff there Michel, thank you. I assume the Forward Delivery Squadrons, being Army level units, would have had different AoS numbers?

    Anything within spitting distance of its original price, I suppose, and not the outlandish sums being asked for second-hand copies of Hodges or Taylor.
     
  5. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    Corps troops such as the armoured car regiment ought to have the corps rather than the divisional emblem. Were there ever occasions when a corps had more than one armoured car regiment?

    I have some questions and observations about the RA markings -

    When did armoured divisions acquire a counter mortar battery? My recollection is that two mortar locating batteries are formed in late 1944 as Army troops. Each division had a counter mortar organisation, but this was a HQ usually improvised using Light AA vehicles and communications.

    Some of the notes for the RA units look off. Divisional Light AA Regiments tended to have a mix of SP and towed equipment. For Normandy the Anti tank regiments of the Assault Divisions (3, 50 and 3 Cdn) had a mix of SP and towed equipment. in 1945 the Valentine SP Archer was replacing towed 17 pounder in the Atk Regts of inf Divs.

    I note that no one seems to have tried a comprehensive guide to the gunner markings - even a list of unit numbers for the tac signs of Corps and Army troops. Is there a source for these?
     
  6. A couple more remarks on the Inf Div NWE:

    - the official abbreviation for Battalion is Bn (not Bttn).
    - It's "Ordnance Field Park" only (without "Company") and the Serial is 92
    - Serial 52 is for "Mobile Laundry & Bath Unit" (not "Mobile Bath and Laundy Unit" - maybe because one gave out one's laundry before having a bath, rather than the other way round :D).

    You will have noted that the serials of the units (not the HQs) run in the seniority order for the different corps, with a few exceptions toward the end:
    HQ – 40
    RAC – 41
    RA – 42 to 47
    RE – 48 to 52
    INF – 55 to 69
    RASC – 70 to 73
    RAMC – 75 to 83
    RAOC – 92 (and 52)
    REME – 88 to 90
    CMP etc. – 79 to 81

    Michel
     
  7. SquireBev

    SquireBev Well-Known Member

    Thanks for this.

    Do you have a source for the RAOC units' numbers? They seem very inconsistent between sources - even the two Guards Armoured Division charts you've posted earlier tell a very different tale.
     
  8. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Re the counter mortar, I did spend a bit of time on it a few years ago now, thankfully assisted by Mike Taylor. The Trux section here includes the late 1944 WE for a Counter Mortar Bty, and it's a very impressive organisation, but I couldn't find any race of it actually being fielded in NWE. Absence of evidence as we're told is not evidence of absence, however it was a large unit, brand new and using then cutting edge equipment, so I'd be surprised if they were formed, served and disbanded without leaving a trace. I think there are some old threads on here with may fingerprints on the same subject.

    As Sheldrake pointed out the two Army level Btys have a definite history. The CMO Staffs in the Br/Cdn Divs were quite small in terms of personnel and had no radar equipment of their own. 21AG published their own WEs for the Staffs, with another variant used in Italy.

    By my count there were five iterations of Div Atk Regt in 21AG, plus another one for Corps. I don't think you'll get them all on a chart and keep it neat!

    Just a couple of observations while on my lunchbreak (which is weird when you're still in your own kitchen). You can remove the Company from the Field Ambulance title, and in the Armd Div there was a Light Fd Amb and a Fd Amb (for the Armd and Inf Bdes respectively). The MLBUs were strictly speaking corps units as I recall, but provided on a Div scale, but I'd be tempted to strike them off your Armd div chart.

    I tend to think of Div Sigs, MG and Recce as Div Troops, but that's probably the way I learned to remember the structure!

    Gary
     
  9. SquireBev

    SquireBev Well-Known Member

    Thanks Gary, very helpful.

    MLBUs being Corps units may go some way to explaining the apparent inconsistency in numbering - perhaps leaving them off entirely as you suggest is the best way to preserve my sanity.
     
  10. Christian Fletcher

    Christian Fletcher Well-Known Member

    The LAA Regt had its own Workshop, not a LAD.There were 12 LAD's in an Infantry Division. In some Divisions were the regs were actually followed the REME units would display their colours with 11 different serials. Just to confuse the issue there were 2 LAD's Type B (non-armoured) which used 40 - Divisional HQ had its own and the CRSigs would have keep his next to his 1 Sqn which served the sgnals units and included a Signasls Stores Section (not RAOC) and a small specialist workshop sub-troop.
    Additionally there were 12 RAOC Stores Sections, one with each Infantry bn and with each Infantry Brigade Workshop. The serials would have been white on Black until the Blue-red-blue flash was finally authorised.
    RSigs Sqns worn the signs of the unit they were attached to. 1 Sqn used 40: 2 Sqn used used 40 for the A/T & LAA regts sub-troops but 42, 43 & 44 for the Field Regts. 3 Sqn supported everyone else and sported 6a, 41, 81, 87, 94 and 40 for the CRE!
    As most of the these sub-units were integral to the workings of their "parent" unit it was very desirable for traffic control etc to have everyone correctly "labelled".
     
  11. SquireBev

    SquireBev Well-Known Member

    Ever get the feeling you've bitten off more than you can chew?

    Would the Stores Sections have adopted their parents' serials too?
     
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  12. Christian Fletcher

    Christian Fletcher Well-Known Member

    Apologies for the typos in my post - it was getting on for midnight when I did it!

    Yes, generally.

    I collect vehicle serial numbers and unit tac & AoS signs and shove them in a data base. I started doing it because I was so annoyed by authors just throwing up photos and claiming/captioning them as this or that when they patently were not! I have examples of just about every variation and most "proper" AoS applications.

    RSigs are the most difficult to track down because their vehicles were usually sequestered from the action or nesting with their relative HQ group. Mostly a signals vehicle can only be identified as belonging somewhere by the vehicles in company.

    Likewise the RAOC vehicles were invariably with 'B' echelons. Separating vehicles with blue-red-blue & red-blue is difficult in black & white photos especially if the light doesn't show us the vertical or horizontal divisions!

    I have put together tables of the REME units vehicle allocations by type if you're interested for both Armoured and Infantry divisions if you're interested.
     
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  13. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    Slightly off-piste question to the thread but could someone confirm the correct title for these organisations. Regardless of their containing heavy mortars, I always thought they were known as Machine-Gun Battalions and Companies, and Trux supports this. Thanks in advance!
     
  14. Christian Fletcher

    Christian Fletcher Well-Known Member

    Guards, 7th and 11th Armoured Divisions had Independent MG Companies.

    ist line Infantry Divisions had MG bns from start to mid 1942. Then Support Bns from late '43 to early '44. Then back to MG bns for the rest of the war. Some 2nd line and Reserve divisions had MG Bns assigned but not all and 61st Div actually had both MG Bn and Support Bn in that time frame until the end of the war. (Information from Joslen!)
     
  15. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    Christian - Many thanks. I therefore believe - until someone puts me right - that the use of 'MMG' as a descriptor in a title means 'Medium Machine-Gun'.
     
  16. SquireBev

    SquireBev Well-Known Member

    That's always been my assumption too, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
     
  17. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    Thanks SquireBev. Good luck with your fractal research!o_O
     
  18. SquireBev

    SquireBev Well-Known Member

    Fractal indeed. I'm opening brackets within brackets faster than I can keep up.

    As a break from the AoS mess, I've put together a chart of Infantry division insignia, to complement the Armoured division chart posted previously. I've endeavoured to draw the emblems myself as much as possible, or at least to trace them from photographs.

    If anyone spots any glaring errors, or can shed any light on the mysterious 13th Infantry Division, do let me know!

    UK - Infantry Division Insignia-01.png
     
  19. Christian Fletcher

    Christian Fletcher Well-Known Member

    Just for fun, you could add the three deception divisions: 7th (Cyprus) that used units of the garrison to form a divisional radio net and which used the Cyprus District sign of a Lion, 40th Division formed in Sicily by designating the HQ and units of 43 Infantry Brigade as Div & Bde HQ's and used an Acorn on a White Square as a shoulder patch but maybe not on vehicles and 57th Division formed in North Africa by designation of 42 Infantry Brigade which may not have existed long enough to get a sign painted on its skeleton transport issue!
     
  20. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Those 19XX-1945s: if we're to nitpick, a lot of divisions remained in existence well after the close of hostilities.
     

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