British tanks at Gazala

Discussion in 'North Africa & the Med' started by diciassette2000, Aug 15, 2019.

  1. diciassette2000

    diciassette2000 Junior Member

    Hello everyone
    I would be grateful if anyone could indicate the quantities and types of tanks used by the 1st British Armored Division during the Battle of Gazala (May 26-June 28, 1942)
    Thanks in advance
    Maurizio
     
  2. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    During the battle, the number and types of tanks were changing on a minute by minute basis. 9L, for example, started the battle with 47 tanks in their lines. 9 days later they had just 1. But many of the 46 no longer in their lines still existed with other fighting units or in repair units of the division. Some of them may well have returned to 9L.
     
  3. diciassette2000

    diciassette2000 Junior Member

    Thankyou very much.....
    Maurizio
     
  4. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    This is a snapshot from 5th May 1942 (WO169/3861)

    Ready Now

    1 Armd Div; 36 Grants, 55 Stuarts, 100 Crusaders
    7 Armd Div; 90 Grants, 75 Stuarts
    22 Armd Bde; 36 Grants, 116 Crusaders
    1 Army Tk Bde; 104 Valentines, 58 Matildas

    Ready 1 June

    1 Armd Div; 36 Grants, 116 Crusaders
    7 Armd Div; 76 Grants, 75 Stuarts
    22 Armd Bde; 36 Grants, 116 Crusaders
    1 Army Tk Bde; 104 Valentines, 58 Matildas

    Ready 15 June

    1 Armd Div; 36 Grants, 116 Crusaders
    7 Armd Div; 90 Grants, 75 Stuarts
    22 Armd Bde; 36 Grants, 116 Crusaders
    1 Armd Bde; 76 Grants, 64 Stuarts
    1 Army Tk Bde; 104 Valentines, 58 Matildas
    32 Army Tk Bde; 52 Valentines, 66 Matildas

    (GHQ MEF, CRME/1578/2/AFV)

    Some help I hope, though as you'll no doubt know, AFV returns tend to be rather broad and nowhere near as detailed as we'd like.

    Gary
     
    Tricky Dicky and Chris C like this.
  5. diciassette2000

    diciassette2000 Junior Member

    wow.....thankyou very much Gary
     
  6. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    It's incredible how out of touch GHQ was with reality.

    8th Army was battered at Gazala and on the run back to el Alamein and Cairo still thinks they haven't lost a single tank by the 15 June!!!!!

    Of course, read carefully and you can see that this is a planned distribution not an actual. If "now" is 5 May, 1 and 15 June numbers are future estimates based on trying to reach interim establishments. They are not actuals held.

    On 27 May when 9L was called into action, they started forward with 33 Crusaders (a mix of Mk.1, Mk.2, gun and CS), 12 Grants and 2 Stuarts. On 5 June they had just 1 tank in their lines.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  7. diciassette2000

    diciassette2000 Junior Member

    Yes, I had also read about these detachments between official reports and reality but I didn't think they were so coarse ... It is also true that even the Regio Esercito lacked imagination, often inventing random numbers based on "maybe" instead of on true power relations. But in the case of the British it was always like this or was it the fault of a given period like the battle of Gazala that saw them succumb and therefore the relationships could be confused and incomplete ???
    Thank you for all the valuable information provided
    All the best
    Maurizio
     
  8. MarkN

    MarkN Banned

    On 18 May Brig Briggs GOC 2 Armd Bde decided to reallocate the tanks amongst his three armored regiments. This reallocation was implemented immediatly and can reasonably be assumed to be the actual totals for the three regiments: QBays, 9L and 10H.

    The plan was, when the right numbers and types were available, for each regiment to have 36 Crusader, 12 Grant and 2 Stuart.

    However, in the meantime, this is what was created...

    QBays: 22 Crusader, 12 Grant, 16 Stuart
    9L: 37 Crusader, 12 Grant, 2 Stuart
    10H: 36 Crusader, 12 Grant, 2 Stuart

    The Crusaders were a mix of CS and gun variants, Mk.1 and Mk.2.

    There is no indication if what types and numbers of tanks were allocated to other units or sub-units within the brigade.
     
  9. diciassette2000

    diciassette2000 Junior Member

    Therefore considering that the 9 Lancers on May 27 had 47 tanks and on June 5 only 1 was it was usual in that battle for the English to lose a remarkable number of tanks in a very short time even if in the months following me it turned out that they had succeeded in replacing well their losses (unlike the Italians and the Germans who didn't get many reinforcements anymore) ???
    Thank you again for the data provided and the excellent explanations...
    All the best
    Maurizio
     

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