British Intelligence In Wwii

Discussion in 'Top Secret' started by jimbotosome, Aug 27, 2005.

  1. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    Is there a forum on the feats of British intelligence, counter intelligence and espionage? Its seems to me that the Brits made a sport out of intelligence in WWII. When you hear some of exploits of the clever Brits against the notoriously earnest Germans, you have to laugh. Real life Q's that worked at Bletchley Park had to have inspired Ian Flemming.
     
  2. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Originally posted by jimbotosome@Aug 28 2005, 03:14 AM
    Is there a forum on the feats of British intelligence, counter intelligence and espionage? Its seems to me that the Brits made a sport out of intelligence in WWII. When you hear some of exploits of the clever Brits against the notoriously earnest Germans, you have to laugh. Real life Q's that worked at Bletchley Park had to have inspired Ian Flemming.
    [post=38228]Quoted post[/post]

    Good topic Jim.

    While I am not one for James Bond, I do like to watch movies with these themes from WW2.

    These were another group of people whose deeds were not as obvious to people on the outside. There were many mistakes made, which is the norm in any conflict however they saved countless lives.

    Most times the field agents knew their chances of survival after a drop into occupied territory were 1 or 2 in 10 but still took the jobs assigned to them.

    As the "Brits" activities in code breaking influenced many outcomes, the breaking of the code for the Midway invasion possibly changed the course of the war in the pacific.

    There would be countless other "Wins & Losses" to be added here.
     
  3. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Real life Q's that worked at Bletchley Park had to have inspired Ian Flemming.

    Blectchley was only there for Code breaking. Fleming worked for Naval Intelligence it would be the euqipment people who worked for SOE, with their various "funny" weapons; that would have influenced Fleming.

    But Intellignce is a very big air to cover, as mentioned bletchly was only one part.
     
  4. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    Perhaps there is no better illustration of the role of intelligence than of Midway. The breaking of the code for Midway also included Coral Sea where it was first suspected to be cracked. This meant 3 less carriers in the Midway attack and 5 less carriers all around which broke the Japanese advantage.

    An interesting note about the battle of Midway. In reading Doolittle's book, what I found out was that it was the Doolittle raid off the USS Hornet had a tremendous effect on Japan. The Japanese killed 250,000 Chinese trying to find these pilots for interrogation. They believed and taught that their homeland was protected by the “divine wind” and was untouchable. They were totally dumbfounded as to where this attack originated from. This pulled much of the Pacific fighter defense back to the island instead of being able to maraud other Pacific targets, they had to know protect their own. They could not figure out where land based bombers could have come from so they had to assume it was Midway Island where the US had their closest airfield. When the newspaper reportetd tried to get Roosevelt to give them the details of the mission in where it had originated from, he said they came from a new "secret base" in “Shangri-La” (which is a mythical land in John Hilton’s classic novel “Lost Horizon”). The Japanese were mystified because they didn’t realize it was from a carrier, since the attack was from land based bombers. Eventually the truth became known but after the Midway disaster. As a result of Roosevelt’s retort, the next aircraft carrier commissioned was called the “Shangri-La” and was christened by Doolittle's wife.
     
  5. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Originally posted by jimbotosome@Aug 29 2005, 11:50 AM
    Perhaps there is no better illustration of the role of intelligence than of Midway. The breaking of the code for Midway also included Coral Sea where it was first suspected to be cracked. This meant 3 less carriers in the Midway attack and 5 less carriers all around which broke the Japanese advantage.

    As I said in my post, the positive identification of "RF" as Midway altered the course of the war in the Pacific.

    Similarly, the Battle of the Coral sea saved Australia from eventual invasion.
     
  6. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    As I said in my post, the positive identification of "RF" as Midway altered the course of the war in the Pacific.

    Actually it was "AF" for Midway
     
  7. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Originally posted by morse1001@Aug 29 2005, 02:06 PM
    As I said in my post, the positive identification of "RF" as Midway altered the course of the war in the Pacific.

    Actually it was "AF" for Midway
    [post=38314]Quoted post[/post]

    Of course it was. I should edit more often even on little posts

    Thanks Morse.
     
  8. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    Moderator's comment:

    I can't say that there is a forum particularly dedicated to intelligence, SOE, OSS, etc. Perhaps there should be and I will raise it with Lee. However, I don't think this topic belongs here in UK Home Front, so I am moving it to "General" for want of something better.
     
  9. seven4eight

    seven4eight Junior Member

    Am I correct in saying that no german spy operated in england during the war without getting caught (and executed) ?
     
  10. Dac

    Dac Senior Member

    Originally posted by seven4eight@Aug 31 2005, 04:02 PM
    Am I correct in saying that no german spy operated in england during the war without getting caught (and executed) ?
    [post=38450]Quoted post[/post]
    AFAIK the British XX-Committee either turned all German agents or executed those unwilling to co-operate.
     
  11. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    The reason I posted the question here is that the Brits were the kings of intelligence and counterintelligence as far as I am concerned. I believe that the US was good at intel but the Brits had this cleverness and cunning to them that's undeniable. It was almost like a sport to the Brits. I sometimes get the feeling they derived great satisifaction out of duping the Germans and it was fun for the Brits to con the Germans by some trickery just because of the elitist attitudes that were prevelent in the Third Reich. They are like squirrels. No matter what mechanism you put up to keep a squirrel out of a bird feeder, he will always find a way to defeat it.

    It's not just the men either. I remember reading the accounts of British women that broke into radio transmissions of the dispatchers of the fighters and getting the German announcers roaring angry by trying to convince the pilots that the actual dispatcher was the enemy agent trying to mislead the fighters for intercept of allied bombers. I was kind of hoping to read some stories along those lines.
     
  12. mattgibbs

    mattgibbs Senior Member

    Not all the German agents were executed. Some worked for brit. intel. working their radios back to the germans. All are supposed to have been captured. If they weren't how would we know!

    The equipt. Section at Bletchley Park was moved to The Fysche and called Station IX, which came under SOE. They designed many explosives and weapons for the resistance, from the Welpen, a .22 ink pen/last resort pistol to explosive packages that were used to demolish the Heavy water plant at Norsk Hydro in occupied Norway.
     
  13. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    (Colonel Gubbins @ Dec 2 2005, 11:59 AM) [post=42384]Not all the German agents were executed. Some worked for brit. intel. working their radios back to the germans. All are supposed to have been captured. If they weren't how would we know!

    The equipt. Section at Bletchley Park was moved to The Fysche and called Station IX, which came under SOE. They designed many explosives and weapons for the resistance, from the Welpen, a .22 ink pen/last resort pistol to explosive packages that were used to demolish the Heavy water plant at Norsk Hydro in occupied Norway.
    [/b]


    Operation Quicksilver, and Garbo (Hitlers favourite agent - "turned") Bodyguard plan (D-Day) was the best deception plan ever put into operation during ww2.
     
  14. mattgibbs

    mattgibbs Senior Member

    Thanks for that Spidge, something else to read up some time.
    Anyone have any information on Unternehmen Moewe? Operation Saegull, there were several of these aimed at getting agents into the UK by flying them in by seaplane?
    Regards
    MG
     
  15. Hi
    There were two German agents who went through the war undetected. In KV 2/1933 it mentions a Diedrich Jacobs, a naturalised Briton but South African of German origin, who was found to be an agent from captured German files. Unfortunately he died in hospital before he could be interrogated. The same file also mentions another man who evaded capture but he is not named and MI5 have not answered my letters regarding FOI information.
    Jacky
     
  16. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Jacky check out 'The Defence of the Realm', the authorised MI5 history by Christopher Andrews. There is mention of a couple of undetected agents in MI5. But I can't remember now if they were German or Soviet. Both are named.

    Incidentally the Security Service and the Secret Intelligence are both exempt from the FOIA.

    Edit to add: just checked 'The Defence of the Realm', pp 244-247. Two German agents were recruited into MI5 from SIS in the early days of the war.

    Folkert van Koutrik, the assistant to SIS head of station at the Hague was an Abwehr double agent. He betrayed both Putlitz and Dr. Otto Krüger. After the German invasion of the Low Countries he made his way to Britain and was recruited by MI5 to work with foreign refugees.

    The second was William John 'Jack' Hooper, a British-Dutch dual national also had worked for SIS at the Hague. But was later recruited by the Abwehr and the NKVD. He was employed by MI5 during the war as an agent recruiter in Glasgow.


    Lee
     
  17. red ling

    red ling Member

    Another good book to read is "The Deceivers" by Thaddeus Holt. I have been wading through it finding info re my father with MI6 and ISLD.
     
  18. Tab

    Tab Senior Member

    Camp David the Presidential retreat used to be called Shangri - La, and when Ike came to be President he named it after a grandson and gave a more Military name than Shangri-la. So when the President told the Japanese that they had came from Shangri-la he basically saying that he sent them
     
  19. When Giskes (who was involved in Intelligence in Holland) was being interrogated at the end of the war, he recognised a voice and identified the man. He was taken to confront the man, Jack Hooper, who was a naturalised Englishman. Apparently he betrayed agents to the Abwehr than changed back again and intended to lure Giskes into a trap, but he was warned in time. According to the book I am citing (but whose name I forget) Hooper was hanged, but I contacted someone in Holland who insisted he was not a traitor and lived to a ripe old age. Does anyone know of him please?
    Jacky
    If anyone desperately wants to read about Hooper let me know and I will plough through my books. I intended to add him to my list of 'Those who did not do their duty'
     
  20. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    Jack, I mentioned Hooper in post 16. I don't have 'The Defence of the Realm' to hand at the moment but there is further details about Hooper in it but do not remember if it says what become of him.

    IIRC it says he was uncovered at the end of war through captured German documents. So the tie in with Giskes (famous for the Englandspiel against SOE) is interesting.

    Lee
     

Share This Page