British General Hospitals at Venray

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by alberk, Nov 14, 2021.

  1. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hello,
    I understand that B.G.H. were situated well to the rear of the battlefronts. I have a question regarding the campaign in north-west Europe 1944/45: Would B.G.H. usually be accommodated in suitable buildings or do we have cases when they used tents and other newly erected structures?
     
  2. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    In March 1945 - prior to "Operation Plunder" - Venray in the Netherlands became the "hospital area" for Second Army. Three B.G.H. were set up, No. 9 B.G.H., No 81 B.G.H, and No 84 B.G.H.

    Two had a capacity of 200 beds each, one 600 beds. As Venray is a smallish (?) city I am wondering which buildings were used for the three hospitals. Or were tents used as well?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
  3. P-Squared

    P-Squared Well-Known Member

    I cannot answer directly, though I did find this (you may have seen it already) - doesn't answer your question, but does seem to identify what BGHs were where:
    Hospitals WW2 - Scarlet Finders
    My gut feeling is that they would use existing buildings whenever possible (it just makes sense - what we used to do when I was on a mobile radar unit in the 90s). Tents are to be avoided unless absolutely necessary! I did find this quote, 'The 104 BGH was set up again with patients and officers in proper buildings while other ranks were put in two-man tents to keep fit and hardy! The hospital settled back into normal running. I took a couple of opportunities to visit Pompeii.' (104 British General Hospital - Regiment History, War & Military Records & Archives.) That suggests that a mix of tents and buildings were used - again, I am sure the latter would just depend on availability of suitable buildings.
     
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  4. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    No standard answer . There were 100s of them . All over the world , plus ones from all the Commonwealth and empire and it varied from move to move and length of stay . You’d have to go hospital specific in WO222 and WO177 at Kew. They usually have details , sometimes down to minute plans of the accommodation
     
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  5. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    In Venray there were two psychiatric hospitals - one for men (St. Servatius) and one for women (St.Anna) - both surrounded by large open grounds. From what I know the patients had been moved to Belgium in 1944, and Venray's civilian population had also been evacuated. So probably the hospitals could habe been used for the British General Hospitals in March 1945.
    St. Servatius.jpg
    Sint Anna.jpg
     
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  6. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    I did some research on Dutch website: As the city was on the front line the civilian population after the liberation of Venray had to leave the city between 20th and 28th October 1944, the patients of St. Anna and St. Servatius are taken to Belgium. It also says that St. Servatius was used by the British as of February 15th, 1945 - but it was set on fire by accident after tiled stoves were improperly put to use.
    I suppose that rules out one of the hospitals as accommodation for a BGH.

    And after March 10th, 1945 civilians were allowed back into their city...

    Source: https://rooynet.nl/images/deelnemers/expo/kroniek.pdf
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2021
  7. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Another possible location? The former St. Elisabeth Hospital at Venray:
    St. Elisabeth Venray.jpg
     
  8. Keith Lawler

    Keith Lawler Member

    Hi Alex, working with local researchers in Venray where my mum's husband is buried, I am fairly certain he was evacuated to this hospital after being wounded in Bislich. I understand the hospital had a military wing assigned and received a number of servicemen in 1944 mostly but with some in 1945. Sadly a lot of records have been destroyed so exact details are not possible to confirm. Those who died were buried in a temporary cemetery on Hoenderstraat in Venray, about 500m from the hospital. After WW2 they were moved to the Field of Honour next door where they lie now and which was handed over to the CWGC in 1947.
    Hope we might still meet up in Bislich one of these days.
    Best
     
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  9. Keith Lawler

    Keith Lawler Member

    Hi again Alex, I came across some details on the IWM site about Father Vincent Fay who was attached to 9BGH. He talks about setting up tents in the grounds of the Franciscan Monastery in Venray. Spending some time now trying to establish which of the three Franciscan Monasteries I have identified in Venray at that time (March-May 1945) were used by the British military.
     
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  10. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hi Keith, when researching C-47 crashes in connection with operation Varsity I came across this Dutch account about an emergency landing at Oirlo/Netherlands:

    "Vijf inzittenden, waarschijnlijk allen van de Amerikaanse nationaliteit, verlieten het toestel en doken met hun wapen in de aanslag achter een heg. Eén bleef in eerste instantie zitten, maar kwam, nadat duidelijk was dat hij in niet bezet gebied was, ook naar buiten.
    Enkelen waren gewond. De eerste piloot met een grote wond aan zijn kaak en een andere een kleine wond aan zijn knie. De eerste verzorging van de gewonden werd gedaan door zuster Jozefita. Daarna werden ze door een Rode Kruiswagen van het Britse leger naar het ziekenhuis Sint Paschalis te Oostrum gebracht.

    Deze Skytrain die bij Oirlo neerkwam, was de C-47A (43-16035, 9O-A) van het 85 Troop Carrier Squadron, een onderdeel van de 437 Troop Carrier Group. Dit vrachtvliegtuig, dat de formatieleider was van de tweede serial (A9) van de Group, werd gevlogen door Major Charles W. Williams als eerste piloot."

    As I suggested before, Sint Paschalis very likley housed one of the BGHs at Venray
     
  11. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hello Keith,
    so far I could establish two monasteries in Venray at the time: Jerusalem Klooster, situated on Heuvelstraat it apparrently houses offices of the city's administration today. The other one would be Sint Jozef Klooster, situated nearby.
    So 9 BGH would have used the grounds (and buildings?) of a monastery in Venray - we just do not know which one. You suggest that there was a third monastery at Venray - I am sure that eventually we can establish which buildings were used in 1945. The locals seem to know very little about this... good luck!
     
  12. Keith Lawler

    Keith Lawler Member

    Hi Alex

    I absolutely agree with you that 81BGH in Oostrum was in located in St Paschale/St Paschallis.

    I also agree with you that the Brits caused a lot of damage to St Servatius in 1944 when they poured gasoline onto the stoves. They wanted to blow up some of the buildings to prevent fire spread but were persuaded not to by the brothers. The local fire brigade eventually got the fire put out but it was quite an effort because water pipes were broken during the fighting and they had to fetch and haul water over quite a distance.

    In terms of 9BGH. My friend in Venray who is a local historian and researcher believes that the monastery used was the Klooster der Minderbroeder which we know from Father Fay was heavily damaged. I understand the building no longer exists. I continue to search for more details on this one and of course 84BGH which is proving ellusive.

    I notice from some of the pieces I have ready that BGH is sometimes referred to as a British Military Hospital although using BMH has not helped my research any.

    On IWM I came across private papers from Father EJ Swift SJ CF. He was attached to one of the BGHs in Venray but I need to contact IWM for permission to access these papers, something I want to do as his personal accounts will be valuable, I am sure.

    I have plotted my photos onto your 1945 map of Bislich. I now want to overwrite your 1945 map with Google Maps today to see how the east bank has changed. Wow, you are right, so little has changed in the village. I am very fond of Xanten, spent my last birthday there, and want to include it in my next trip, when the virus allows, more from the March 1945 angle than sitting in the square as a tourist sipping a cool lager.

    I have read a lot of the account written by LSU - Battle for the Ruhr: The German Army 's Final Defeat in the West. I am pleased to see you being recognised as a reference for some of their work.

    Stay safe and looking forward to meeting up some time soon.

    Regards
    Keith
     
  13. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hello Keith,

    great to hear that you found a local historian who will help - when reading your post it crossed my mind that British war dead were buried near (or behind) the St Elisabeth hospital in Venray. I was told about this by a Venray lady on WW2talk. Have to look that up... Anyway, to me this suggests that the local hospital might have been used by one of the BGHs.
    I am curious what the IWM document will reveal about the BGHs at Venray. For me this whole subject is of interest because at one point I want to write about the RAMC and the US Army Medical Services' infrastructure set up for Plunder and Varsity. I researched quite a bit on that and Venray is important in that context with regard to the British side.

    However, I have never been to Venray - something that ought to be changed come springtime... And with regard to Bislich/Xanten we should be able to arrange something in the not too distant future!
    Bets
     
  14. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    This came from forum member Lizdutch who "adopted" a grave of a British casualty who was initially buried behind the old St. Elizabeth hospital.
     
  15. Keith Lawler

    Keith Lawler Member

    Hi Alex

    You open up a very interesting debate.

    First. I would be happy to meet you in Venray. My mother's husband, Cpl Arthur Frank Wynn, 6bn Royal Scots Fusiliers, 6207585, is buried in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetery in Venray. I have adopted his grave and visit often. He is the one wounded in Bislich in the early hours 24 March 1945.

    You are right. From my early research I found that there was a field cemetery near the St Elisabeth Ziekenhuis, as you alluded to in an early post. I know that this hospital had a military wing suggesting that wounded servicemen may have been treated there and if they died, they were almost certainly buried nearby. Sadly the hospital records were destroyed so we may never know who was admitted there. The field cemetery was in Hoenderstraat near St Odal chapel and about 500m from St Elisabeth. That has been confirmed by eye witnesses now sadly no longer with us. My friend the local researcher is seeking to identify exactly where the field hospital was. We have some photos and I have been with him trying to recognise the landscape but now the area is overgrown with large trees so its hard to recognise photos from 1945 with what you see today.

    Then, as my research progressed I found out about the three BGHs in Venray and Oostrum. From my reading of Crew - The Army Medical Services these hospitals were all established in March 1945 in preparation for the Rhine crossing and were well equipped. Whether somebody like Arthur was taken to St Elisabeth and died there or was taken to a BGH and was transferred to St Elisabeth or whether he died in a BGH I may never know. Then of course it could be as you suggest that 84BGH was established in St Elisabeth (which was demolished in the 60s), a very real possibility.

    After the war those in the field cemetery were moved to their final resting place, also in Hoenderstraat. This was initially under local authority but in 1947 I think it was it was taken over by the CWGC and headstones were placed at each of the graves. This is where Arthur now rests. The site is now well attended with some strict rules to ensure it is properly preserved.

    I attach some photo which may interest you.

    1) The temporary cemetery that you mention
    2) Arthur's grave where he is now but before the CWGC headstones were placed
    3) St Oda Chapel
    4) Me attending Arthur's grave as it is today
    5) Here I have used Google Maps to show the area between St Oda and the CWGC cemetery, about 200m. It may be in this area that the field cemetery was located.

    Ah, nearly forgot, I have a question for you. Which is Paster Kuhnen's house?

    Take care
    Keith
     

    Attached Files:

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  16. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hi Keith - thanks for the pictures and further background information.

    From what I read in Crew's book the BGHs were fully equipped hospitals - there was no need to bring British casualties to existing civilian hospitals and I am rather certain that St. Elisabeth was not operational at the time, shortly after the evacuation of civilians from Venray had ended. I think there was no mixing of military and civilian medical infrastructures - the whole concept of a BGH is to be autonomous and to bring and to provide all that is needed.

    In the case of Venray it is just a question of which existing buildings they used - and suitable buildings were very likely used, maybe with tented structures added.

    Good luck with your further research - and maybe we'll meet someday soon!
    Alex
     
  17. lindap

    lindap Member

    Hello Alberk, re OPERATION PLUNDER my late father served with 35 Field Dressing Station. They set up 30 Corp's CEP on the crossing the Rhine downstream of Rees before bridges were operational. Attach some information which you may find helpful with your research. His CO Captain Esmonde was awarded the MC (citation attached) for their treatment.My father remembers loading up his jeep with sandbags and watching in drive around the site they has chosen to check for mines!
     

    Attached Files:

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  18. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hello lindap,
    excellent - thank you very much for these papers! And the "sandbag idea" sounds like a bit of a challenge...
    Best
    Alex
     
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  19. Keith Lawler

    Keith Lawler Member

    lindap, I would like to add my thanks to that of Alex for sharing your papers with us.
    Kind regards
    Keith
     
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  20. Keith Lawler

    Keith Lawler Member

    81st BGH Oostrum.jpg oostrum 1945.jpg 81st BGH Oostrum.jpg oostrum 1945.jpg
    Hi Alex
    Hope you are well.
    I attach a photo taken of the staff at 81 BGH in Oostrum taken on 24 March 1945 (coincidentally the day Arthur was wounded in Bislich). There is a second photo taken in 1945 (Rooynet) so you can see more or less the setting of the staff photo. A local historian in Venray has confirmed the St Paschalis location having worked there some years ago. I found this on www.qaranc.co.uk website (Queen Alexandra's Royal Army Nursing Corps). It is from a diary kept by a nurse who worked at 81 BGH - Becky R. Hilda Sharpe who writes at length about her life at the BGH.
    Stay well
    Best
    Keith
     
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