Bombing Fatalities - Memorial?

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by Skip, Dec 30, 2022.

  1. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    All,

    Grateful for some help please - I'm researching several people killed in bombing raids on London and Kent and wondered if, aside from the Roll of Honour books within St. George’s Chapel, Westminster Abbey, is there a national memorial (as opposed to village memorials) on which individual names are commemorated?

    As always, any pointers are much appreciated.

    Best,

    Skip
     
  2. Little Friend

    Little Friend Senior Member

    There are quite a few plaques I have seen in various parts of London with the names of the Bombed victims.
     
  3. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    No physical national memorial with individual names

    but

    If you go to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission search page

    https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead

    and put Civilian War Dead 1939-1945 in the "Served In" you will get 69,180 individual names.

    You can refine the search or download the lot onto a spreadsheet for manipulation

    Ross
     
    alieneyes likes this.
  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Skip if you name them forum members might be able to help

    i have numerous war memorials and civilian graves many from the London area including memorial plaques.
    Dont forget when you look at a civilian casualty for the UK their death will state the reporting authority it was logged in and does not state a place of burial. Although if the person lived in the local reporting area there is a chance they are buried locally but does not state a cemetery
     
    Harry Ree likes this.
  5. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.

    I was aware of the CWGC entries and that these refer to their place of commemoration at St. George's Chapel but wondered if there was a national memorial rather than Roll of Honour books. As their place of burial is not listed it makes it difficult to find them, even in small villages where not every grave has a headstone or where they have been damaged or grown over. Even less chance in more central London locations where options of cemeteries were more numerous and larger. Shame really.

    Best,

    Skip
     
  6. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    You got to use a few linked resources but it usually can be done.

    I chose to use a Jones as an example for you -

    CWGC has Emma Dorcas Jones - hit the details and you see she died at Streatham Hill Theatre.

    Now go to Ancestry and search on the name and date of death

    You get probate record that confirms full address as 52 Wyatt Park Road

    also is Find a Grave entry which gives as Wandsworth Cemetery
    Emma Dorcas Jones (unknown-1944) - Find a Grave...

    No plot number so looks like a lost or unmarked grave but you can look further into the cemetery register if the detail is important.

    So not one source but two cwgc and ancestry

    Ross
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2022
  7. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Skip you can track them down if you have their names not easy but possible thats why i asked if you could name them
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2022
  8. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Ok cheers CL1. There's quite a list that I'm still working on but a good example is Lt-Col (Rdt) Ronald MARRYAT DSO, born 1881 in Reigate, killed on 11 May 1941 at his home 15 Basil Street, Knightsbridge. He was survived by his eldest brother, Gerald, who had emigrated to Canada in 1899.

    Grateful for any pointers as to how I can find where people like Ronald were buried or if there were no remains to bury.

    Best,

    Skip
     
  9. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Skip
    Might be worth dropping a line to Pete Wood
    Civilians killed and wounded in London - test finished

    Also worth getting death certs although this will be costly if you have a number to do
    You have to look at cems nearby plus parents home town and wifes home town
    Contact the relevant local cem offices and request a search
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2022
  10. Little Friend

    Little Friend Senior Member

    View attachment 344263 View attachment 344263
    I took these photographs in the Cherry Lane Cemetery, Hayes, Middlesex. December 2013.

    0ac5155d42e881c0fdde0c523bfdb5ff.jpeg 110e58ebec5a467e36727a115e30cf29.jpeg ab89cc7453cd563a0d2c13710a01b055.jpeg
     
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  11. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    CL1 and Little Friend - thanks for the useful replies, I'll go through the link (cheers CL1) and also look out for communal memorials in cemeteries.

    Best and thanks again,

    Skip
     
  12. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Skip
    The civilian memorials in cemeteries can state the persons are buried there and their graves are not marked or they are buried in mass graves sometimes the cemeteries name victims of the area where they perished. It really does vary by cemetery /area
    The example of the above which i also have marks a bombing of the HMV factory in Hayes i have found a casualty of that attack buried in Wealdstone cemetery which is ten miles away
    Town or village memorials have names of the fallen both military and civilian they sometimes include people who served and did not die.
    My thread here on civilian casualties i have come across on my travels plus other members headstones

    Civilian Casualty Headstones :World War 2
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2022
    Skip likes this.
  13. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Thanks for the link to your thread. Really interesting. I see you have helpfully copy and pasted the details from the CWGC website - how did you find out what cemetery the individuals were buried in from the details of the borough responsible for the commemoration?

    Using my earlier example of Ronald MARRYAT, his CWGC entry states that he is:

    Buried or commemorated at
    CHELSEA, METROPOLITAN BOROUGH

    The bit I don't understand is how I get from that information to finding a grave, or is it just a case of scanning all cemeteries within that Brough's remit?
     
  14. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Skip

    i found
    /find them when looking for CWGC military casualties i trawl around the whole cemetery which can sometimes take a while i find them at random.
    For a civilian when it states Buried or commemorated at X that only states the reporting authority of the death not where the casualty is buried.

    Thats why when you are looking for a civilian look at where cwgc states they were killed look at their home area and sometimes it states parents or wife/husband area where they lived which makes it very complicated

    look at this thread of mine explains a bit more Randomness of Bombing Great Britain World War 2
     
    Skip likes this.
  15. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Last try to help.

    You may be looking for something that did not/no longer exists.

    Using the method I outlined - probate, death register and find a grave all come up for your specific person.

    However find a grave is a database entry only - not linked to a cemetery for a lost plot.

    If you change the search in CWGC to look for all Civilian deaths on 11th May and refine to Chelsea you will see that all killed at 15 Basil Street all result in the similar database entry at find a grave.

    This is unusual given the range of nationalities and different family persons killed and tends to suggest a communal grave with lost marker. This is underlined by the chap who died at St Luke's with family in Oxfordshire not having a marked grave in London or Oxfordshire.

    Another possible is that there was no body recovered to bury.

    In that case two routes are open to you
    1. get a copy of the death certificate to see if death was presumed or if cause was simply stated as war operations (would also do a couple of the others killed in No.15 to see if they say the same)..
    2 If 1 applies then after March 1941 a Coroner could not simply accept no body recovered and sign off death due to war operations an inquest was required. Look to trace the Coroner report.

    Ross
     
    Skip likes this.
  16. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Ross - Thanks for explaining that. I had seen the probate and FindAGrave entries, the former showing that MARRYAT's 'dead body' was found there, i.e. 15 Basil Street, but hadn't appreciated that the CWGC results suggest a communal unmarked grave. Apologies if I'm being slow on this but I'm not used to researching civilian deaths, only service personnel that seem a lot easier.

    CL1 - Thanks again for the extra snippets and the link. It's made me think I need to start photographing similar headstones that I spot when walking around civilian cemeteries.

    Best to both,

    Skip
     
    RAFCommands likes this.
  17. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    First thing is to confirm the the text "dead body found there".

    You can do this without doubt for £7 and have it as an email answer within 5 working days (usually 3 or 4 from my experience). In case you have not used the service:

    Visit the General Registry Office Web site and create an account - it's free and makes the search and order process a breeze.

    General Register Office (GRO) - Official information on births, marriages, civil partnerships and deaths

    Once you have an account log in and go to the Search the GRO Indexes

    Select Death.

    1941 in the drop down year box

    Surname Marryat
    Sex Male

    That's all you need to fill in for the search
    Hit search button

    Only one hit is returned

    Click on the empty circle in the blue box surrounding the entry to select

    Choose Certificate
    It will fill in all the details and present you with a new page containing.

    Important - scroll down to PDF copy of entry and select this

    This is the £7 option - now Submit and you will be taken to the payment page to complete.

    All there is to it.

    They will send you an email when it's ready and you log back into the site with the order number to view and download.

    That's the start for confirming if you are looking for a communal grave or if death was only presumed.
    Ross
     
    Skip likes this.
  18. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Ross, many thanks, that's incredibly useful for a few lines of research, not just the one that this thread is about. Much appreciated. Best, Skip
     
  19. Skip

    Skip Senior Member

    Ross - just to follow up on this. Thanks again, your guide to searching and ordering pdfs from the GRO Indexes have been VERY helpful indeed and will continue to be so. Very much appreciated.

    Best and HNY,

    Skip
     

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