BEF Artillery Markings

Discussion in '1940' started by May1940, Feb 17, 2011.

  1. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    Morris with sign on door. Dunkirk. Might be RA unit?.
     

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  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Re: rolfi's 140 Rd Regt markings, it looks like another example of a signals truck in a RA regiment.

    rolfi,
    Purely out of curiosity, what was the source for 74 Fd Regt and NZ colours - written or colour photos? It was a good find, wherever it was.
     
  3. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Some good stuff is being added to this post. Here are points to support what Rolfi has said.

    By chance I picked up a book this weekend by Jeffrey Plowman - Armor Camouflage & Markings of the 2nd New Zealand Division - Part 1 Greece & North Africa, pub 2006. As Rolfi indicated, NZ markings (following British markings), may be a guide for the BEF so it may be interesting to relate here what it shows:

    The last page shows graphics of the tactical artillery markings for 4, 5 and 6 Field Regiments. Each regt has one shape: 4 - square, 5 - rectangle, 6 - triangle. Within each regt three batteries are shown and no HQ. For each battery the relevant shape is divided into three horizontal bands. The top two bands are always coloured red (top) and dark blue (middle). The bottom band colour is varied according to the battery - green for the senior battery, yellow for the middle battery and light blue for the junior battery. All this ties in with what Rolfi has shown.

    Plowman also points out that before May 1941 there were only two batteries in a regt and each battery had three troops - first battery: troops A, B and C and second battery: troops D, E and F.

    The book also shows the letters and numbers used for vehicles within a single battery. It shows tractors in the first troop marked A1, A2, A3, A4 for gun towing and AA and AB for the two towing only ammunition limbers. The second troop are B1 etc. This helps explain some of the number and letter markings we have seen.

    Also shown (Keith and Rich) is M1 - as the first of five trucks in the Field Regiment's signals section.

    Andrew
     
  4. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Morris with sign on door. Dunkirk. Might be RA unit?.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachments/1940/46538d1298795554-bef-artillery-markings-morris-door-jpg

    Keith

    Never noticed this before either. It looks like a circle with the upper half possibly red and lower half appears to be divided into two horizontal bands - the upper band probably blue and the lower band possibly green. Above the circle it looks like a white above blue rectangle just like the signals marking in the 140 Fld Regt picture in Rolfi's post. That this is a signals vehicle is evident from the fact that it is a Morris 8 cwt PU Fitted For Wireless.

    Andrew
     
  5. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    AA gun with 35 and number, could be part of a div sign on left mudguard A/18/3 ?. truck with AA and 28. Photos from my collection/book.
     

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  6. rolfi

    rolfi Member

    BEF Artillery.
    re. post #25
    I reckon this...
    [​IMG]

    is the third section (of four) of 18 AA Battery, 4 HAA Regiment RA; 4th HAA Regiment RA had 16, 18 and 27 AA Batteries. I think there's a white A on the other mudguard; perhaps identifying the individual gun. So, if I'm right, 35 is the unit sign of 4 HAA Regt.

    and for Idler...

    The information about 74 Medium Regt's signs came from the sketches of "Gunner X", Bill Carman. The NZ stuff came from Jeffrey Plowman's book.
     
  7. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    BEF Artillery.
    re. post #25
    I reckon this...
    [​IMG]

    is the third section (of four) of 18 AA Battery, 4 HAA Regiment RA; 4th HAA Regiment RA had 16, 18 and 27 AA Batteries. I think there's a white A on the other mudguard; perhaps identifying the individual gun. So, if I'm right, 35 is the unit sign of 4 HAA Regt.

    and for Idler...

    The information about 74 Medium Regt's signs came from the sketches of "Gunner X", Bill Carman. The NZ stuff came from Jeffrey Plowman's book.
    This photo was on Ebay. you can see the 35 better.
     

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  8. rewdco

    rewdco Senior Member

    Here's another one from eBay:

    [​IMG]

    Jan
     
  9. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Here's another one from eBay:

    [​IMG]

    Jan

    Thanks Jan. The pattern and tones of colour look similar to the Scammells in my post #6. From the top: red then blue then yellow (or white)? The lower part is too light to match Rolfi's picture of circles for 1 Heavy Regt.

    By the way Rolfi, what pictures did you base the 1 Heavy Rgt upon?

    Andrew
     
  10. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    This photo was on Ebay. you can see the 35 better.

    Keith

    That 35 is pretty clear thank you. Did you receive my reply to your message yesterday? I never seem to know whether my message has been sent or not!

    Andrew
     
  11. rolfi

    rolfi Member

    Andrew

    The (inspired) quess at 1 Heavy Regiment's sign was based on an IWM still photo and a frame from a newsreel of the same vehicle.
    [​IMG]
    The sign is under the gunner's arm.

    RW
     
  12. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    morris with a M4

    photo 1 Morris with C3. 2nd photo number 5 and GS4. 3rd photo with Div sign + 6?. 4th photo M5 and number 5 + what looks like a doll on the rad. The first two photos where from Ebay a few years back photo 3/4 are from my collection/book. Thanks for the Help on ID of the photos.
     

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  13. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter 1940 Obsessive

    Fascinating photos Keith.

    The second image of the PU4 shows the crossed keys of 2nd Infantry Division. According to the I Corps listing, this was originally allocated to 18th Field Regiment RA but they left the division as part of the February 1940 re-allocation of regular and territorial units. They were replaced in 2nd Div by 99th Field Regt. RA, this picture clearly post-dates the change.

    The third picture has the 4th Infantry Division circle and the AoS '6' indicates the Anti-Tank Regt. but Bellis's listings don't show who this was during 1940.

    Rich
     
  14. idler

    idler GeneralList

    The third picture has the 4th Infantry Division circle and the AoS '6' indicates the Anti-Tank Regt. but Bellis's listings don't show who this was during 1940.

    14 A/Tk Regt according to the Div history
     
  15. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter 1940 Obsessive

    14 A/Tk Regt according to the Div history

    Cheers. I did wonder but Bellis lists 14 A/Tk for 1/42 - 11/44 only. I should have dug Ellis out, because he does indeed show 14 A/Tk with 4 Div in the BEF orbat.
     
  16. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    photo from my collection. Aos number 13. TLC. and RA unit sign. Truck in background has a number 5.
     

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  17. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter 1940 Obsessive

    '13' at Corps level is a Medium Regiment but with no formation sign visible, it's not possible to know who. Is there anything further visible on the originals ?

    The background is quite a big city. Brussels ? I can't think of anywhere else that the British retreated through that is quite that grand.
     
  18. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Andrew

    The (inspired) quess at 1 Heavy Regiment's sign was based on an IWM still photo and a frame from a newsreel of the same vehicle.
    [​IMG]
    The sign is under the gunner's arm.

    RW

    Rolfi

    You are right about the regt. I can also confirm it carries an AoS with the number 21. I have seen a couple more pictures of this scene in the Imperial War Museum's photo library in London this week and 21 appears front and back. In fact if you look at a full print of your pic above you can see there is an AoS plate with a 2 visible on the front of the radiator.

    How you spotted the tactical symbol I don't know. I didn't notice it on the 7x5 print at the IWM!

    Andrew
     
  19. May1940

    May1940 Senior Member

    Is the Blaxland Carrier not one of those AOP converted Scouts or a Universal ? It's a shame that the AoS marking has been obscured by the British censor, along with the street sign. It's credited as an IWM photo. I wonder if they've found a neg without the censor's marking since Blaxland was published ?

    I imagine it's likely to be Brussels. Which GHQ Arty troops would have advanced through Brussels with II Corps ? I'd assume that 60th and 88th Army Field Regts would be candidates ?

    Andrew, Further to an earlier mention, the 1940 period gas detector paint was very yellow (canary yellow would have been appropriate) so if you can find a clear image showing the gas paint near to your mystery marking colour then you should be able to make a comparison of shade. It certainly looks darker than the white areas to me.

    Rich

    When I was at the IWM last week I found this picture in the F series file. Unfortunately it is censored like the Blaxland version.

    Andrew
     
  20. morrisc8

    morrisc8 Under the Bed

    from my collection. number 13 and H and div sign?.
     

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