BEF Armoured Units War Establishment Related Questions in 1940

Discussion in '1940' started by Drew5233, Dec 17, 2010.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Anyone know what tanks, carriers etc these two units had in May 1940?

    I've got the unit diaries on a seperate hard drive and can't check at the moment if it states what kit they were using. Any assistance greatly appreciated.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    15/19H had Light Tanks Mk VIB and Scout Carriers. Not seean any Scout Cars (Dingo) mentioned yet.

    Same for 5 DGH (unsurprisingly). They quote the sabre establishment as: 3 squadrons, each of 2 tank and 4 carrier troops; each troop having three vehicles of the approriate type. There were probably a few more tanks/carriers in the squadron and regimental HQs.
     
    Drew5233 likes this.
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers Andrew. I thought it might be the same as the 1st Light Recce Bde but wanted to confirm.

    Out of curiousity whats the source?

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  4. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Am I right in thinking that's another name for the BEF's Armoured Reconnaissance Brigades that were raised by pinching the Div Cav Regts from the Inf Divs?
     
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Might Be :lol:
     
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Just found another one if you could be so kind to confirm:

    13/18th Hussars.

    Mucho Thank you's.
     
  7. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Yep - Light Tank VIBs. Carriers get a single mention!

    Have you come across 1 East Riding Yeomanry, 1 Fife & Forfar Yeomanry, and 4/7 Dragoon Guards yet? You have looked at Joslen, haven't you?
     
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers Andrew

    Ref 1 East Riding Yeomanry and 1 Fife & Forfar Yeomanry. I've done them. Not got onto 2 Div yet so what did 4/7 DG have?

    I'm typing up a full BEF orbat for May 1940 and listing what kit Armoured and Artillery Regiments had in France. I'm using Philson as my main source along with Ellis and anything else that springs to mind on my shelves as I go.

    I've got a Jolsen Orbat book but I'm sure it only included a D-Day and African (El-Alamein) Orbat in it. Its been demoted from my shelves downstairs and lives in the bedroom now I don't think there is anything in it of use to me. Am I missing something?

    Andy
     
  9. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I thought you did. True, it doesn't have a BEF orbat, but the div/bde orbats do cover the BEF period, e.g. the divisional tables include the BEF-era Div Cav Regts and their successors, the Recce Regts.

    4/7 DG also had VIBs and scout carriers, by the way.
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers again - I'll get Andrea to dig it out for me.
     
  11. The two Armd Recce Bdes were each made up from two Div Cav Regts, as mentioned purloined from four Inf Divs (three more remaining with their formations).

    The WE allowed for 44 scout carriers and 28 light tanks, all Mk VIs, allocated as below (nicking from myself so I don't mind copying and pasting!) -

    A Divisional Cavalry Regiment, circa 1939 to 1940 ref II/1931/6/2 of 25th May 1938

    Regimental Headquarters (5 Officers, 21 men);
    4 Light tanks
    2 Carriers

    Headquarter Squadron (5 Officers, 101 men)

    Squadron HQ (1 Officer, 4 men)
    Motorcycle Troop (1 Officer, 40 men)
    Administrative Troop (3 Officers, 57 men)

    Three Squadrons (4 Officers, 100 men), each comprised of;

    Squadron HQ, Fighting (2 Officers, 13 men);
    2 Light tanks
    2 Carriers
    Squadron HQ, Administrative (19 men)

    Two Light Tank Troops, each (1 Officer or NCO, 12 men);
    3 Light tanks

    Four Carrier Troops, each (1 Officer or NCO, 10 men);
    3 Carriers

    Total Strength of;

    444 all ranks (22 Officers, 422 men)
    28 Light tanks
    44 Carriers

    Joslen does have the overall summary for an Inf Div on the 1940 WEs, but doesn't breakdown the allocation of vehicles and equipment below Div level.

    Gary
     
  12. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers Gary,

    I have all the manning levels in Alan Philson's 6 BEF Orbat Volumes. It was just the vehicle types that I was after from 10th May 1940.

    Regards
    Andy
     
  13. 4/7 RDG

    4/7 RDG Member

    The tank/carrier ratio certainly holds good for 4/7 RDG in May 1940, but there was also a platoon of motorcyclists on strength (I guess the same applied to all Divisional cavalry). There were nominally 41 motorcycles, some of which were for regimental provost attached to HQ, but many others served despatch riders and were allocated to the squadrons. Some of these were m/c combinations, perhaps Norton Big 4s, from this extract from the regiment's war diary for 19th May:

    [FONT=&quot]The DRs had again done magnificent work. Lance Corporal Hartley doing good work getting ammunition up in the sidecar and both Morgans and Cuff showing great determination in getting their messages through, though again handicapped by being without large scale maps.[/FONT]

    The allocation of despatch riders seems to recognise that the wireless sets fitted to the tanks and some of the scout carriers would fail sooner rather than later. This from the regimental journal for 19th May:

    [FONT=&quot]Owing to the wireless batteries of all but the 3rd Troop being out of action through 9 days of constant use, the D.Rs., L/C. Turner and Tpr. Shipley had many exciting rides to the left of the position and tribute must be paid to the fearless manner in which they delivered their messages in spite of heavy fire, some of which hit their machines.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]
    It must be added that the regiment was given temporary command of limited machine gun, a/t and infantry support at various times, without which they could not have served so well in holding actions.
     
  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Can I just point out unless they were Signals cap badged they were motorcycle messengers. Dispatch Rider was a trade within the Royal Signals and exclusive to that Corps.

    Just a minor point, I'm sure you'll understand ;)
     
  15. 4/7 RDG

    4/7 RDG Member

    Both the war diary and the regimental journal refers to them as D/Rs, and they were certainly on the regimental strength. Maybe the term was used in a general sense ("Don-Rs?) for any motorcycle messenger at the time?
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    It is indeed a general term that seems to have been adopted over the years that anyone with a bike that delivered a message was a DR. One of my WW2 Royal Signals books written by a Signals head shed dismisses it and states that it was a Corps only trade within the Army and all other cap badges were messengers.

    Sorry I'm going off topic - Time for another thread after tea me thinks :D
     

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