Back again - medal entitlement

Can any of the Naval experts on here give me an idea what medals my Grandad may have been issued for his WW2 service?

Royal Marine Herbert Hill PO19359 served for 26 years, his WW2 service was onboard Armed Merchant ships.

HMS President III - 2nd Nov 39 - 14th July 40
Eaglet - 15th July 40 - 17th July 40
HMS President III - 18th July 40 - 31st Dec 40
HMS President III - 1st Jan 41 - 10th Jan 41
Portsmouth Div - 11th Jan 41 - 26th June 41
HMS Canopus - 27th June 41 - 28th July 41
HMS Afrikarda IV - 29th July 41 - 19th Jan 42
HMS Afrikarda passage - 20th Jan 42 - 19th Feb 42
Portsmouth Div - 20th Feb 42 - 18th May 42

HMS President III, I know was the accounts for personnel serving onboard Armed Merchant Ships

HMS Eaglet I think was the training establishment for personnel serving on Armed Merchant ships

HMS Canopus - was a shore base in Alexandria Egypt

HMS Afrikarda - was a shore base in Durban, South Africa

While attached to HMS President III I have evidence he was onboard SS Aguila, this is by way of a identification card, where they have him down as a deck hand.

I know that SS Aguila was sunk by a torpedo, I have a picture of my grandad on crutches, which he told my Dad this is when his ship was sunk, I cannot confirm if he was onboard SS Aguila at the time of the sinking.

In his sailors playbook and identify book there is an entry on the 25th Feb 1942 where he was Paid while in RN Hospital Haslar, also an entry stating that he left service with scars on both knees.

I have sent off for his WW2 service records to see if it lists anything more than I already have, What I would like to know is his medal entitlement, does anyone have an idea what he may be entitled too?

I will post some more pictures that maybe of interest.

 

Identification card for SS Aguila, their cargo I believe was fruit from Madeira

 

A picture of my grandad on crutches as a result of his ship being torpedoed

 

Sailors playbook entry

 

I’m not sure about WW2, but in WW1 he was awarded the Victory Medal and British Defence Medal, record below

 

Thanks Temujin I have a picture on my Grandad in the late 60’s probably not long before he passed away. It shows 4 medals, one of which looks like the 1914-15 Star, which doesn’t make sense as he wouldn’t have met the entitlement criteria and the other would be the Long Service Good Conduct medal, but not sure, I am hoping that maybe when I get his WW2 service records it might tell me more.

 

This picture taken on his wedding day on the
17th April 1940 shows a, medal bar with three ribbons and also 3 good conduct chevrons on his sleeve

 

Hi

Contact MODMO - Medals: campaigns, descriptions and eligibility to find out his medal entitlement.
As for the photos, yes the first one looks like the 14-15 Star, then British War and Victory medals. The last one is hard to tell, maybe Defence Medal??

regards
Robert

 

Thanks Robert just sent them an email

cheers Kieron

 

Hi Kieron,

It is difficult to assess his medal entitlement for WW2 Naval service due to the lack of information regarding the theatres of the war he served in. To accurately give a medal entitlement, the Navy would need to know each ship and theatre and because of the way the Navy recorded service this can be difficult so many years after the events. So far you only have one ship, AGUILA, in 1940 with the remainder of his service set against accounting bases. This is especially true with regard to HMS PRESIDENT III, as he could be on DEMS duty on ships in many places. DEMS ratings were frequently turned around and mostly changed ships on completion of the voyage and some part way through so I would say it was unlikely that he was aboard AGUILA when she was torpedoed in 1941. The evidence suggests he was probably torpedoed in early 1942. I would hope the MOD would check his P & V record to check for service in MN ships. Some records I have seen are quite thorough with each ship named but others sadly only show the accounting base so there are no guarantees.

A check of AGUILA's crew agreement for 1940 should show if he had a previous ship. The file is held at Kew in piece BT 381/686 under the ship's official number 140543.

Regards
Hugh

 

Much appreciated Hugh and thank you for you time.

Regards Kieron

 

Kieron, Herbert’s full service record, from enlistment 16 May 1916 to discharge 18 May 1942, can be downloaded from TNA: ADM 159/195/19359. Note that it continues on Frederick Benham’s record (included in the download).

His enlistment date confirms your suspicion that he was ineligible for the 1914-15 Star. I couldn’t see any reference to a LS&GC medal nor in ADM 171. As his Good Conduct record is rather chequered – he had received his third badge in 1930 but had apparently forfeited one shortly after your photograph, and all of them by January 1941 (a reaction to his overseas posting perhaps) – a LS&GC medal may be another liberty.

With Madeira being a neutral port, I think that the reference to ‘deck hand’ would have been a subterfuge. I also agree with Hugh and don’t think that Herbert could have been aboard Aguila at the time of her loss - she was sailing from Liverpool to Gibraltar - Herbert had already been with Afrikander for a couple of weeks by then.


Record Type: Memorandum Former Reference: WP (41) 218 Title: Weekly Resume... | The National Archives

 

As Richelieu states deck hands were, when ascribed to military personnel aboard MN ships, a common parlance for those attached to the D.E.M.S. organisation. They were paid a nominal sum by the ship owners and given civilian clothing to wear ashore in neutral ports. They were noted on ship crew agreements as deck hands.
Regards
Hugh

 

I too had been looking at his NA Record. It confirms Temujin's post that he was awarded the WW1 and Victory Medals. Off the subject of the original question it also seems to have an erroneous entry of 'Discharged Dead'. Interestingly he must have been involved in the capture of a ship as there are entries for payments from the Navy 'Prize' Fund.

Tim

 

The ‘Naval Prize Fund’ was a fleetwide distribution Tim.

 

Tim, not necessarily so, a share from the Navy Prize Fund was distributed to all personnel bourne on ships' books. A smaller share was also distributed to those serving ashore.
Regards
Hugh

 

Firstly thank you everyone that’s contributed to my post, such knowledgable people… thank you

This is Herbert’s discharge certificate dated 1938

Still trying to get my head around it all.

thanks again everyone. Cheers Kieron

 

Looking at the criteria for the Long Service/Good Conduct medal, am I right in saying Herbert was entitled to one after 15 years and having 3 good conduct badge’s? If this is the case looking at his discharge certificate for 1938 he had three good conduct badges and his character “Very Good”

So from the 12/4/1930 up to 17/7/1940 he had Three good conduct badges, it may not be clear in the photo of his wedding day 17th April 1940, but he has 3 chevrons on his left arm of his uniform and a medal bar with three ribbons. With a hi power magnifying lens I have counted the lines of the ribbons starting left to right and can clearly make out the British War medal and Victory Medal, then obscured by the carnation is another ribbon, could this be the ribbon of a Long Service/Good Conduct medal, I have looked through the ADM171 files and can’t see a record of him receiving one… What makes it odd and confusing is that the last picture taken of him in the lates 60’s shortly before he passed away he’s wearing 4 medals, again with a magnifying lens it shows what looks to be a 1914/15 star, which he wasn’t entitled too, British War, Victory Medal and a Long Service and Good Conduct Medal… I am totally confused.

Any suggestions?

I hope all that makes sense

 

Could he be wearing the 1914-1915 Star in memory of a relative?

 

Kieron. Expanding on #12. The criteria for GCBs and the GC&LS Medal are different. GCBs could be awarded, then deprived for offences, then restored after a short period of good conduct. This clearly happened to your grandfather. The criteria for the medal is 15 years continuous character assessment not below VG (Very Good). Your grandfather's character assessment for 31 Dec 24 is 'Good', he would therefore not be eligible for the medal until 1940. However he left the RM in 1937 at the end of his engagement. On being recalled he again blotted his copybook. My assessment would be that he never qualified for the LS&GC Medal.

Tim