B Sqn. 2nd Lothians and Border Horse. Royal Armoured Corps. - Argenta Gap

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by ewe, Jul 25, 2011.

  1. ewe

    ewe Junior Member

    My Uncle was killed in action at Argenta Gap Italy this is his war grave: The War Graves Photographic Project

    all I know about him is he was in a tank when he was killed - can anyone help me find out more?

    I'm considering applying to the MOD to see his service record but wondered if anyone here can help me first.

    I am particularly interested to know which tank he was in and the uniform he would have been wearing.

    Does anyone know where I could get photographs, illustrations, books etc. (all the books that might help seem to be unavailable)

    Please help if you can many thanks
     
  2. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Hello and welcome ewe
    Best apply for his service record now as there is a long wait (been told about a year). Other members more knowledgeable than I will be along shortly to assist! If you have any photos etc please post them as it will help them.

    Lesley
     
  3. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

  4. Oldman

    Oldman Very Senior Member

    Ewe
    Welcome on board
    You need to find a copy of the following book that refers to the Argenta Gap and River Po

    The Impossible Victory br Brian Harpur or Harper it will give you details of what happened and maps.
     
  5. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    Welcome to the forum


    Cheers
    Paul
     
  6. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Ewe-
    The 2nd Lothians were the third regiment of the 26th Armoured Brigade in the 6th Armoured Division along with the 16t/5th lancers and the 17/21st lancers.

    This Division had landed in North Africa in November 1942 and were involved in many battles such as Fondouk - Djebel Kournine - Kasserine. and a few other minor battles and finally making their way to Italy in dribs and drabs from the January of 1944- in time for 16/5th Lancers to take part in Cassino two at the station with the 28th Maori bde of the Kiwi division.

    They were prominent at the final battle - Operation Diadem in the Liri Valley until Rome when they changed over from 8th Army to 5th US army in the pursuit to Trasimeno - Perugia -Arrezzo and on to Florence- spending the winter of 44/45 in the mountains above Florence.

    Returning to 8th Army in time for the spring push where they took the major part in cutting off the German Armies from the River Po leading to their surrender- and pursuing the remnants into Austria at Knittelfeld and Judenberg - where the 16/5th took part in the first Searchlight Tattoo to be held overseas in Vienna - before moving to Villach in preparation for the move to Lybia as a Recce unit in late 1947 !

    By all means apply for his service Records - no matter how long you have to wait for them - they will be worth it ..

    Cheers
    PS - I left 16/5th Lancers at Villach having joined them in Austria
     
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    EWE-
    Further to my last posting - the main Tank in the 6th Armoured was the Sherman with the 75mm gun - later a few were introduced with the 76mm gun - in late 1946 - the Tanks were withdrawn and replaced with armoured cars such as Staghound's - Greyhounds, in readiness for the move back to Lybia.

    There was no special uniform for Tanks just the normal denims and black beret with the Wheatsheaf cap badge for the Lothians - I note that his number is of the old RTR batch which indicates he was called up before the new recruits did the General Service route in 1942 - probably called up in 1941.
    Cheers
     
  8. ewe

    ewe Junior Member

    Thank you very much for your help.

    My Dad had an album of photos and letters - I am hoping to see this soon.

    I know it contained a letter addressed to my Gran, from my Uncle's commanding officer.

    I am hoping that this will help me to understand more.

    I have only been researching this a very short time and but I am already finding the gaps in my knowledge very frustrating. I'm not a great reader but I've been studying The World At War DVDs to educate myself.

    My Dad, (who died last year) was also in the war - Black Watch but he didn't talk about it very much. All I know is he was injured shortly before the Battle of the Bulge and it was whilst recovering from this he heard the news of his older brother being killed.

    My Dad visited his brother's grave in Argenta Gap around 1980.
     
  9. ewe

    ewe Junior Member

    Just read your posts Tom

    Thank you very much for your help I do appreciate it
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    If you can get to the National Archives in London you can view/copy his units war diaries.

    WO 166/1391 ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS: 2 Lothians and Border Horse Yeomanry. 1939 Aug.- 1941 Dec.

    WO 166/6907 ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS: 2 Lothians and Border Horse Yeomanry. 1942 Jan.- Oct.

    WO 169/9334 2 Lothians and Border Yeomanry 1943 July-Dec.

    WO 170/841 2 Lothians and Border Horse Yeomanry 1944 Jan.- Dec.

    WO 170/842 2 Lothians and Border Horse Yeomanry, 'A' Squadron 1944 May

    WO 170/843 2 Lothians and Border Horse Yeomanry, 'B' Squadron 1944 Oct.

    WO 170/844 2 Lothians and Border Horse Yeomanry, 'C' Squadron 1944 May

    WO 170/4632 2 Lothians and Border Horse Yeomanry 1945 Jan.-Dec.

    WO 170/7870 2 Lothians and Border Horse Yeomanry 1946 Jan.

    WO 175/295 2 Lothians and Border Yeomanry 1942 Nov.- 1943 June
     
  11. ewe

    ewe Junior Member

    Cheers
    PS - I left 16/5th Lancers at Villach having joined them in Austria

    So you were at the battle of Argenta Gap where my Uncle was killed?

    Would his tank have been hit by a Panzer?
     
  12. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    EWE-
    No I was not involved in the Argenta Gap battle as I had just been discharged from five months in hospital and was at the base depot in Rieti awaiting orders to join 6th Armoured div- as my regiment had been broken up at the Christmas time and many of the lads went on to the 6th Armoured - the Canadians whom we had been supporting in the Gothic Line battles were on their way to NWE at Belgium - the 1st Armoured Div. had been also broken up and there were only a few Tank battalions left as some of them were heading for Greece..so it was 6th Armoured for many of us.

    Difficult to say how your relative was killed as the Sherman was noted as being a "Ronson" as being lit first time on being hit - so it might have been anything from a mine - panzerfaust - panzer- so it would be guesswork to try and nail it down unless some of the crew survived- as I did, but we had Churchill Tanks which were tougher
    and only the Tank Commander died of wounds - the gunner and I wounded and the driver and Co-Driver escaped unharmed,from at least five shots from an 88mm A/T gun

    Cheers
     
  14. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    EWE - there are two books which might help your orient yourself with the actions and conditions in which your relative had to fight -- 1) "Mailed Fist" by Ken Ford -ISBN -0 - 7509 - 3515 - 4......2) "Gothic Line" by Douglas Corgill who was an officer in 2nd Lothians and relates the final battle in which your relative was killed - they are both
    good reads

    Cheers
     
  15. plang876

    plang876 Worrier in the wasteland

    Hi Tom,
    I'm new to the forum but have been very interested in your contributions. Just noticed you were in Villach (Am Worther See?) My father ended up there in a Sherman Dozer troop of 1st Fd Sqn RE, part of 25th Armoured Engineer Bde - as far as I'm aware, only the one troop from 25th AE Bde went there. Any recollection of them? Look forward to more recollections, all the best, Paddy Lang
     
  16. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Paddy
    at the end of the war the 6th Armoured Div. pushed on into Austria but were heldup by the Russians at Knittelfeld / Judenberg for three weeks until the sectors were finally sorted out with the Russians moving back to the Semmering Pass - and we stayed around that area for the next eighteen months- then around November '46 we moved down to Villach in preparation for a move to Lybia - and being winter I didn't see too much of the Town and don't really know who or what was there at that time as my eyes were focussed on demob- and nothing else mattered !
    Cheers
     
  17. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

  18. Kedi

    Kedi Junior Member

    Hello and welcome, Ewe, and wishing you luck in your search.
     
  19. GANDALF

    GANDALF Member

    Hi Ewe,

    You can try also this book:

    G.W. Martin
    Cassino to the river Po
    G.W.Martin
    1999
    ISBN 0-953512-0-7

    it was written by an officer of B Squadron that was involved in fightings close to my village during June 1944
     
  20. GANDALF

    GANDALF Member

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