B.E.F. Platoon in Belgian Pillbox ?

Hello,

The little object in attachment (view in recto and in verso) measures 15 centimetres by 7 centimetres and is made out of plywood. It was found several years ago in a concrete pillbox along the river Dyle Line at Sint-Joris-Weert (Weert St. George), about 9 kilometres south of Leuven (Louvain).

This machine-gun pillbox was held by the B.E.F in May 1940. The pillbox was constructed by the Belgian army and coded LW7 (Louvain-Wavre 7), meaning the 7th pillbox along the line Louvain-Wavre. LW 7 is situated in the sector once held by The 1st Battalion, Loyal Regiment.

According to the War Diary of 1.LOYALS one platoon of C. Coy held the bridgehead. Pillboxes LW 7 and LW 8 are situated on the east bank of the river Dyle, both forming a bridgehead defending the roadbridge leading into Sint-Joris-Weert (Weert St. George).

Concerning the images attached:

- Image called Recto_IMG_001: In the centre of the plywood marker one can read the number 40357 in pencil, underneath it the code 14 PLT in pencil (the number 40357 is repeated in the upper right corner).

- Image called Verso_IMG_0002: In the upper left corner one reads the following number and word in pencil:
770860 SPEDDING

Questions:
1. Does anyone know what unit is represented by this plywood object, and what the pencil codes, numbers, and yellow stripes stand for?

2. I assumed 14 platoon was with 'D' Coy - not 'C' Coy?

3. Is it possible that the object may have belonged to a machine gun platoon of the 2nd Bn. Cheshire in support of 1.LOYALS. After all the object was found in a pillbox, a position suitable for two machine guns .

I thank you for any help you can give.
Dirk

 

I think that yellow paint is gas detector paint, so perhaps a personal gas detector?

770860 SPEDDING ? Possibly a soldiers name and number? He#s not listed on CWGC by the way.

 

I'm just wizzing through 4 Cheshires D Coy war diary and it lists 13, 14 and 15 Plt in D Coy. I think it would be safe to assume 2 Cheshires was the same.

 

Thanks Andy!

How does gas detector paint work?

Dirk

 

Have you got a rough date when you think 2 Cheshires were there?

 

2. Cheshire were there from 12 May up to and including 16 May 1940.
1. Loyals were there from 12 May up to and including 16 May 1940.

With regard to gas the following is mentioned in War Diary 1. Loyals, dated 14 May 2230 hrs.: "Gas alarm report C. Coy but not confirmed".

Dirk

 

I'll check 2 Cheshires for you later over those dates.

Rich Payne knows more about the Gas Paint than me (It was him that first told me about it). His BEF 2nd Division motorbike even has/had some original gas paint on it I believe.

 

Yes I now have Broadband !

WO 167/724

 

Nothing on D Coy I'm affraid

 

On that paint question ... This yellowish paint was used to detect mustard gas (and similar battle agents). It was also used on vehicles and even aircraft. It would turn pinkish once it came into contact with the mildest doses of the agents it reacted to. One can often see British vehicles with a square box on the side where the paint (or a piece of fabric containing the paint) was attached to.

 

That reminds me of the baggage tags we used when our kit was carried in unit transport with other Troops and Squadrons.

We had a cardboard or plywood square painted a particular colour for each Troop (different shape per Squadron). Number, Rank and name written on them as well as the UIN (Unit ID Number). It was attached to our Kitbags/Bergans/Largepacks by a piece of string attached through a hole.

Probably nothing to do with this and I have no idea whether they used this system before I joined in 1983.

 

That reminds me of the baggage tags we used when our kit was carried in unit transport with other Troops and Squadrons.

We had a cardboard or plywood square painted a particular colour for each Troop (different shape per Squadron). Number, Rank and name written on them as well as the UIN (Unit ID Number). It was attached to our Kitbags/Bergans/Largepacks by a piece of string attached through a hole.

Probably nothing to do with this and I have no idea whether they used this system before I joined in 1983.


funny you should mention that; I am sure I saw elsewhere on the forum about a series of colour combinations painted on item in such a manner to ID units etc. My other thought weas a tally for a field telephone cable ??

TED

 

It does look like such a luggage tag, doesn't it. Would it be possible that the findings at the pillbox originated from an aft war era?

We also used tags on our luggage in the Dutch army, although not coloured. During the war period I believe that chalk-sticks were used to identify luggage as well as labels sown inside the uniforms (Dutch army). I don't know how other armies handled that sort of stuff.

 

Thanks or "bedankt" for all your suggestions!

The thought also crossed my mind that the object might date from the period 1944-1945, when several Allied units were stationed in the area.

However, the Germans had the entrances to this particular pillbox bricked up during the entire war.

Here are some of the other objects found together with the plywood object in that same pillbox. I hope they might give an idea of the exact period the plywood object dates from.

Andy, thank you very much for the very interesting documents relating to the 2nd Cheshires.

Dirk

 

The Lee Enfield charger fits this description

The Mark II can be divided into two variations. It was introduced in 1906, it had the same 4 oblong base slots but with three ridges to improve it’s strength. The side had 1 round, 2 oval, and 1 long oval holes together with the three oval pips. One side end on each side was cut to make the end into a spring stop; this retained the cartridges until needed and then improved the releasing of the cartridges. The numeral ‘II’ was marked on one side of the charger. The second type of Mark II only has 2 oval pips on the side.

From
The Lee Enfield Association

Probably unlikely to be later war period then.

 

Dirk,

Is this Pillbox capable of taking a Vickers? I only ask as the few 1940 boxes I've been in in France didn't seem capable to me. The slits seemed to high and I'd always assumed they would be for either rifles or Bren guns. I've read of 2 Pounders being used in pill boxes too but I've never come across one that you could get a AT Gun into let along push the barrel out of a slit.

Hence why I'm thinking it was more likely to be defended by Infantry rather than a MG Battalion. Any pics?

Andy

 

No-one has mentioned it yet but a service number 770860, as mentioned elsewhere on the forum would appear to indicate initial service with the Royal Artillery.

The yellow does indeed look to be a good match for early war gas detector paint and the pasty 'thickness' of the coating looks right too. The colour was much brighter than the paint used later on.

I've never heard of troops carrying a wooden personal detector. They were issued with fabric gas detector sleeves worn over the upper uniform sleeve but that doesn't mean that individuals didn't work on a 'belt and braces' basis and make one themselves at the time they were painting unit vehicles.

I have an original example of the paint but the match on my restored bike was achieved using Humbrol matt yellow so it is a fairly 'standard' colour.

 

Rich, thank you for your comment and for your mentioning that service number 770860 would appear to indicate initial service with the Royal Artillery.

Perhaps pillbox LW7 was used by the artillery as an artillery observation post.

I've attached some pics of pillboxes LW7 and LW8 situated on the eastern bank of the river Dyle in Sint-Joris-Weert.
-LW7 in winter
-LW8 in spring, note observation slit and machine gun slit (both filled up with concrete).
-LW8 interior with view of same slits.

Dirk

 

I found this appendix in the 6 Seaforths war diary prior to deploying to France.

 

I have spent quite a bit of time looking at this thread as I am interested in mobilization serials and stripes. (Sad isn't it?) I agree that this looks like a wooden tally used to mark baggage with stripes reflecting the unit's serial number. The stripes are not 1 Loyals as with 1112 they would have had red/blue/red. Unfortunately I cannot find the mobilisation number of 2 Cheshires. (Andy - is it in their diary? It has to be the number for the sea voyage and perhaps immediate transport from the port, but not for miscellaneous moves thereafter as those seem to have been journey specific.)

However, the stripes do match the last two digits of the soldier's own number. 6 and 0 would gives stripes of buff/dark brown/buff. Is that what we have? A kind of personal tag? It's not what the wooden tally was supposed to show but it's a tempting answer.

Andrew