Auschwitz, Is this true???

I've read a story about the Germans massacring the wrong French town somewhere although I am quite surprised the Das Reich Panzer Div would commit such an act. I only thought that the German SS or the army committed the acts. I never imagine the Panzer groups were also involved in artrocities. Horrible, horrible, they'd do such a thing to innocent people. Although I've never been there before I've found this very resourceful website on the town. It has pictures of all the sites and its hardly been changed from that fateful time.

Here's the link: Oradour-sur-Glane 10 June 1944

 

What made you think that driving a tank implied sainthood?

 

No2 Das Reich were SS and that was not the only atrocity they committed
Dapper

 

I see. That's really interesting. What other atrocities did the 2nd SS Panzer division commit?

 

In June 1944, the 2nd SS Panzer Division was stationed at Montauban in South West France, 450 miles from Normandy. During its move north to combat the invasion it was harassed by the Resistance & Allied Special Forces. In retaliation, it carried out a series of atrocities against the civilian population, culminating in Oradour-Sur-Glane. At Tulle on June 9, it rounded up 3,000 Frenchmen; 120 Maquis were to be hanged in retaliation for the killing of 40 Germans whose bodies they claimed had been mutilated. As, according to Das Reich by Max Hastings, no more than 2 of the 3,000 were Maquisards, the Germans had to resort to measures such as assuming that the young, dirty or unshaven were Maquisards. Eventually, all but 410 were released. 120 were selected to die but for some reason, possibly representations by the local priest, the Germans stopped after hanging 99 of the innocent Frenchman. The other 311 were imprisoned; 162 were released & 149 sent to Dachau, of whom only 49 returned. Hastings says that there appeared to be no logic as to who was chosen to be released.

Sturmbannfuhrer Dickmann, the SS commander at Oradour, had previously had 13 people killed at Fraysinnant; one was an old woman who'd fired a shotgun at the Germans, 2 were her nieces whose only offence was to share her house & the other 10 were entirely innocent hostages. Hastings also relates other, smaller executions of innocent people.

Hastings' book deals with only June 1944 in detail but makes it clear that this sort of behaviour was normal on the Eastern Front, where Das Reich had previously served. During his research he met a former officer of another SS division, not Das Reich. This individual told Hastings that long after the war he had met another former SS man who had been at Oradour. The ex Das Reich man had said of Oradour that 'in our circles...it was nothing'. In context, this clearly means relative to what the SS had done in the East.

 

The 99 men were hung from the towns lamposts, aided and abetted by the Vichy French. Today the French hang flower baskets on the lamp posts in remembrance of those that were slaughtered.

What is sickening, is that there have been German Visitors there, that thought the flower baskets were lovely...
Sapper

 

Heinz Barth, a former SS officer convicted in 1983 of crimes at Oradour & in Czechoslovakia, died earlier this month.

BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Nazi war criminal dies in Germany

Heinz Barth's Service records

 

Heinz Barth, a former SS officer convicted in 1983 of crimes at Oradour & in Czechoslovakia, died earlier this month.

BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Nazi war criminal dies in Germany

Heinz Barth's Service records

His death should have come sooner at the end of a rope.

 

For what its worth....

I found this thread about a month ago looking for info on Auschwitz. I visited both Auschwitz sites last week, kept this thread in mind while I was there, and I just wanted to add my personal observations.

There are definately birds at Auschwitz. Auschwitz 1 had so many species of different birds occupying the trees and rooftops that I didn't even bother to count.

At Auschwitz 2 - Birkenau I also observed several species of songbirds, more than a few crows, and even a duck sitting in a drainaing ditch near the rail bed.

The answer to the original post is definately a big no.

The real question should be why do people not see birds when they visit Auschwitz?

Three reasons. One, they don't know where to look and two, specifically in the case of Birkenau, is lack of suitable habitat. Auschwitz 2 is located in a large open area with no significant foliage or other areas for birds to forage for food and there is also no access to water without a substantial rainfail. The only significant patches of trees at Auschwitz lie on the fringes of the camp and this is where I observed most of the activity. Most of the buildings are gone and those that do survive or lie in ruin are not ideal for nesting due to the reasons stated above. Also, I definately heard more birds than I saw.

The third reason is obvious. Birds are generally not what one is going to be thinking about when visiting to that awful place. Rightly so.

Again just an observation on the original question. I'll post some photos of my trip in a different thread later.

 

Thanx for answering my question in much detail mate. As Owen said, I'm glad you kept this thread in mind whilst you were there. Question answered. I look forward to seeing your photos mate. Cheers.

 

Although photographs will undoubtedly be taken,there is a request ,on many notice boards not to do this as a mark of respect,at least in Auschwitz I. On my trip,where I acompanied a group of 6th form students from the UK was pleased to note that cameras were kept in pockets,by our group.Shockingly though on aproaching probably the most infamous wrought iron gates on earth we were greated by the spectacle of young germans posing together for smiley snapshots. I can say though that on coming accross this same group later on they all had a palid look to their faces ranging from white to green.
The only other people happy to show such disrespect were the one set of people stereotypes would presume would be the most respectfull,yes,sad to say,Israeli teens. Now,I could go on in detail to describe how sickened I was by this group(s) and their actions but if I do I may unwittingly play into the hands of evil. Suffice it to say that walking around draped in nationalistic banners and flags,no matter what the symbol,in my eyes is very much missing the point,not to mention a disgusting attitude shown to our own students and the remarks overheard regarding the fact that the museum dares to mention the fact that Auschwitz was not actually built for the housing of Jewish people and that for 2 years it was almost exclusivly a camp for non Jewish Poles. While we were in block 11 the leader ,an adult! of one of the Isreali groups even stated in a very load voice that their Polish guide was lying about the fact that the first victims of Zyclon-B were in fact 600 Soviets and 250 ,presumably,Catholic Poles,he even had the gall to accuse her of anti sematism.
Im afraid denial works both ways and a kipper on your head does not make one an expert or for that matter a particularly nice person. As a relief I later found out that one of our mature students,a jewish lady took this chap to one side and gave him a peice of her mind.

 

Im afraid denial works both ways

There are some who object to the fact that Maximilian Kolbe is remembered at Auschwitz, because he was a Catholic Priest, and not Jewish.

Auschwitz was primarily an extermination camp for Jews, that goes without saying of course, but many people of different creeds, and for different reasons, died there. The first inmates ~ Soviet prisoners of war ~ built the place with their bare hands. The Nazis also gassed homosexuals, communists and Quakers from all over Europe, to name a few. Whilst none of these were on the same scale as the murdering of the Jews, some people go to Auschwitz to honour all the dead.

There was a time, back in the early days of the Museum, when the focus was almost entirely on Polish inmates though, and the Jews were barely mentioned. so I guess these things come full circle. The Nazis were responsible for crimes against humanity, in all its variation, even their own people

I agree about the photos. I admit, I did take some, but have never been able to share them with anyone. And I was sickened when I was there by a girl aged about 10, filming some of the exhibits with a camcorder, plus running commentary, who remarked on a 'cute pair of shoes' behind the glass Also a couple with a kid who was behaving like a total brat, having a tantrum around the museum at Auschwitz I. For goodness' sake ~ don't take your kids to Auschwitz until they have at least reached the age of reason and know where the hell they are!!

*Rant over*

 

For goodness' sake ~ don't take your kids to Auschwitz until they have at least reached the age of reason and know where the hell they are!!

*Rant over*

Agreeing with you fully, Zoya, but at what age is the age of reason?

Several years ago, I was at the Tomb of the Unknowns at Arlington and was preparing to observe the Changing of the Guard. There was the usual gaggle of older teens, who, I guess, thought that they were at a party, judging by their derelict behavior. Fortunately, there were also present there, volunteers who gave these teens a hasty education on how to properly conduct themselves when on hallowed ground. I wanted to applaud these individuals, but, as I said, it was not the place to do so.

 

Auschwitz II,Birkenau,was the specially constructed camp to house the jewish labour force and also for the extermination of those the nazis couldnt work to death,yes,but Auschwitz I,Stammlager was built with the local Polish non Jewish victims in mind,and continuied as such throughout the war.
The other peoples that almost always get left out,though thankfully not in the official commemerations were Europes Roma and Sinti population,their story is absolutly heatbreaking,to add to the absurdity of evil 700 German frontline soldiers of Gypsy extraction,or part extraction were also intered and then butchered by the nazis.These were men who,rightly or wrongly had fought loyally for germany,many being dragged from active service on the Russian front.
I am,well,to put it bluntly,fairly cynical by nature,so with regards to the photos some may say that the fact that many are available from the gift shops (yes,how bizzare) could have some bearing on the no photo rule....
From what I gather from my Polish mates the accepted age for going to the camp is 15,about right in my eyes.
I make no appologies for "going on" in this thread as,odd as it sounds written down,the holocaust(of all hitlers victims) is one of my serious interests . Ive spent quite a while in and around the Krakow area exploring the former ghetto and Oscar Shindlers factory( I very nearly ,with a freind,invested in some work space in the former Emalia werk factory,long story and not for this thread) and also have documented the site of the former Plasow KZ,a chilling place ,especially standing in the celler of Amon Goethes vila on the hill overlooking the camp,touching the steps that such a significant figure in human kindness stood on(obviously I mean Herr Schindler,not the nazi S.O.B and finding old jewish gravestones still standing in what would have been the middle of the womens camp.

 

Oh,and the ultimate weirdness,the location of the railway spur that led from near to Plasow(as seen in the film where Oscar sprays water onto the cattle wagons) is now standing a bloomin McDonalds.

 

The Museum has a sign on its front door, and in most of its literature, that says major discretion should be used before bringing children under the age of 14.

I observed several groups of older teenagers there and thankfully did not witness any unruliness or disrespectfulness. Most of the unfathomable behavior I saw was from an older crowd. Including a group of Japanese 40 something who saw the need to climb ON the international memorial so they could get themselves a group photo.

One thing I did see that caused me great consternation was evidence of several thousand people in a few places who felt the needs to carve their name into the walls of some of the barracks and also a basement area of one building where thousands of people were tortured and murdered. I can't fathom why someone would want their name displayed in a place such as that let alone possess the lack of common respect to desecrate it.

As far a photos go, there were several places in the museum where they requested that one did not take photos. The gas chamber at Auschwitz 1 for instance. Understandably I did not walk into that place and pull out my camera and give everyone in there with me the pleasure of the flash ruining what is for most a very reflective moment. Others were not so thoughtful.

I disagree however with the idea that taking pictures at Auschwitz is disrespectful. If done in the right context, pictures can not only be respectful but also considerably beneficial to the remembrance of those who were murdered there.

Most people in the world will never visit Auschwitz. Taking pictures and sharing them with others is one way, however small it may be, of sharing the story of that horrible place with more people. Never forget means that its all too important to always remember to remember. Photographs are an appropriate way to do that.

None of my photographs include any smiling faces or posed shots, although I did witness several of those being taken by other folks. I tried my best to eliminate people altogether from the pictures I took as a way to accent the sense of desperation and loneliness that hangs about that place.

I took away my personal experience on film and, unless requested not to do so by forum administrators, I am going to share that experience with other people. If not here, then elsewhere.

Standing at the ruins of the gas chambers and looking down the short flight of stairs over which one and a half million people descended and never saw daylight again brought about feelings I’ll never forget. A photograph cannot accurately portray the immensity of the moment for me, but it will help me try to explain and share a sense of it with other people.

They live forever as long as we remember them....

 

"None of my photographs include any smiling faces or posed shots, although I did witness several of those being taken by other folks. I tried my best to eliminate people altogether from the pictures I took as a way to accent the sense of desperation and loneliness that hangs about that place.

I took away my personal experience on film and, unless requested not to do so by forum administrators, I am going to share that experience with other people. If not here, then elsewhere."

No,please dont think I was being judgemental of your good self,or anyone else on this forum,I was just going from personall experiance of Auschwitz I,I think,as you say,you have the balance right,it is a far cry from taking holiday snaps to respectfull photographs.
all the best,and yes please,would be very interested in seeing them myself.
I will also confess to something,I couldnt bring myself to join the group inside the gas chamber/crem' 1,so I snuck off and had a crafty ciggarete near the toilet blocks simply to try to stop my hands shaking.