Would be interesting to hear the opinions here as to why the para`s were not supported by allied fighter cover during battle at arnhem, the official reason stated at the time, was that cloud at the allied air bases in france prevented the deployment of fighters and fighter bombers.....
One reason I suppose is that it is very difficukt to give close air support in such a confused situation, this battle was fought out within yards od each other. There had been far to many of the American forces bombed by their own men by that time that close support was looked on "Gingerly" It is difficult f ro a Spit to distinguish the houses to hit, when they are close together Sapper
One reason I suppose is that it is very difficukt to give close air support in such a confused situation, this battle was fought out within yards od each other. Running unexpectedly into 2 panzer divisions as they did, combined with poor intelligence, bad planning etc I suppose the boys were asking what else could go wrong......no air support!!! I read an account from a guy in 10th/4th parabrigade describing the landing and subsequent days as the closest fighting you could imagine and the carnage and loss of life he saw with hundreds and hundreds killed in close proximity. The weight of kits that they took in were absolutely unbelieveable (over and above the normal survival gear). This monstrous article of baggage was fixed to each individuals webbing by twenty feet of nylon cord, into this bag we stuffed six three inch Mortar bombs per man, grenades, spare ammunition, along with our trusty .303 Lee Enfield Rifles. Around our waist were more grenades, a quantity of loaded magazines for the Sten guns, 100 rounds of 303, and whatever else we could cram in any available space that might be left over. Besides this each of the team had a piece of the Vickers machine gun (50lb a piece) and the water to cool the bloody thing. Close quarters bayonet fighting and six days over the prescribed time. Must have been a nightmare!
British First Airborne Division lacked working radios and a means of communicating with the 2nd Tactical Air Force and its fighter-bombers. When 30 Corps broke out from Nijmegen, they had one car to coordinate the "cab ranks" of Typhoons, and that radio also broke down, making a horrible situation far worse.
point taken regarding the close combat on the ground being a problem for the pilots, however, they could have been told to target tanks only as they would have undoubtably been german tanks. why arnhem failed ? drop zones to far from objective (the bridge) losing element of surprise. poor intelligence regarding german strength in the area. the weather in england, by the time the poles went in, the germans had taken most of the drop zones. poor communication during the battle, and the fact that re-supply from the air was fixed by the planners leaving those in the battle no way of re-directing the air drops to locations that were not held by the enemy.
Talking about close combat....Actual man to man combat, where they are literally at each others throats, is rare. But at le Bisley Wood (Spelling?) there was one hell of a scrap going on, when we moved in, we found that both the British and the Germans laying in grotesque positions, their bodies all mixed up, where they had fought it out hand to hand ,.......and killed each other. I witnessed similar scenes at other times though rare. Thank Heavens! Sapper
i think the germans had a decoration for a soldier who had fought hand to hand.....might look that up later..
Originally posted by seven4eight@Jul 15 2005, 06:13 PM i think the germans had a decoration for a soldier who had fought hand to hand.....might look that up later.. [post=36480]Quoted post[/post] You will find out all about this decoration at the site below: http://axis101.bizland.com/CCC.htm Regards Geoff
Originally posted by spidge+Jul 15 2005, 08:31 AM-->(spidge @ Jul 15 2005, 08:31 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-seven4eight@Jul 15 2005, 06:13 PM i think the germans had a decoration for a soldier who had fought hand to hand.....might look that up later.. [post=36480]Quoted post[/post] You will find out all about this decoration at the site below: http://axis101.bizland.com/CCC.htm Regards Geoff [post=36481]Quoted post[/post] [/b] thanks for that.....
Granted that the close combat, bad radios, meant that air support was next to impossible in Arnhem itself, or anywhere close by, why was it so difficult for air support of 30 corps on the "Hell's Highway." When 30 Corps broke out from Nijmegen, they had one car to coordinate the "cab ranks" of Typhoons, and that radio also broke down, making a horrible situation far worse. Only one radio car for air support for an entire corps? That's incredible.
Originally posted by halfyank@Jul 15 2005, 11:16 AM Granted that the close combat, bad radios, meant that air support was next to impossible in Arnhem itself, or anywhere close by, why was it so difficult for air support of 30 corps on the "Hell's Highway." When 30 Corps broke out from Nijmegen, they had one car to coordinate the "cab ranks" of Typhoons, and that radio also broke down, making a horrible situation far worse. Only one radio car for air support for an entire corps? That's incredible. [post=36497]Quoted post[/post] Apparently so. I believe 2nd Army dealt with that in time for the Reichswald.
Originally posted by seven4eight@Jul 14 2005, 04:49 AM Would be interesting to hear the opinions here as to why the para`s were not supported by allied fighter cover during battle at arnhem, the official reason stated at the time, was that cloud at the allied air bases in france prevented the deployment of fighters and fighter bombers..... [post=36450]Quoted post[/post] I've read that one of the reasons for lack of air support was they wanted to keep the fighter-bombers out of the same areas as the transport aircraft. The planners were worried about "friendly" shootdowns.
XXX Corps was the only ones that had radio contact with the Air Corps. Fighter pilots were under orders not to engage unless requested by the Airborne troops. Because of the nature of the operation, it could have been possible that they might have captured Axis vehicles/equipment and because of past mistakes, that was the order. Do nothing unless requested by ground forces. And the Radios that the Airborne had for communication with the Air Corps were set at the wrong frequency. They had fighter cover after the second day. They just couldn't contact them.
The Cab Rank of Tiffies was controlled by a FOO Air Force officer. He would get in touch with the Tiffies and give them instructions. There was no lack of air support at Arnhem. What we did have was a hell of a mix up,Air strikes may well have killed our own men.That is always the trouble in "Close Combat" It is a mind boggling experience to have Tiffies come in over your head, low and from behind, The rockets when fired, seem to make the plane stop in mid air and the noise is shattering. It is also devastating. Rather like a broadside from a battle wagon. (Battle ship) Sapper
