This is a rather strange question but I do have my reasons for asking. Did Army Chaplains hold any particular rank and were they volunteers or were they already part of the regular army? Cheers
They were given the minimum rank of Captain amd others were of higher rank right up to the 'Chaplain General' who nominally was of 'General' rank.......there were padres pre-war but a lot more guys volunteered as padres with the expansion of the Army.......The Torn Horizon covers the airborne padres at Arnhem and as a snap shot relates what they did before joining the Army.......hope this helps.....
They were given the minimum rank of Captain amd others were of higher rank right up to the 'Chaplain General' who nominally was of 'General' rank.......there were padres pre-war but a lot more guys volunteered as padres with the expansion of the Army.......The Torn Horizon covers the airborne padres at Arnhem and as a snap shot relates what they did before joining the Army.......hope this helps..... I have something in mind for a future project and that helps tremendously Niall, many thanks.
I believe Padre McDowells Diaries were given to the I.W.M. by his Daughter Mary Tagg. He was the Senior New Zealand Presbyterian Padre and was a POW, both in Italy and St 1VB.Germany.
KingArthur You might find the attached of possible interest Ron Thanks for that Ron, until recently I hadn't honestly taking into consideration the role of the clergy during a conflict. I recently got chatting to an old chap whilst fishing and he told me about his father who was an army chaplain in the Burma campaign and that for many years after the war he still received letters and Christmas card from old comrades thanking him for being there in their hour of need. Quite moving I thought.
I believe Padre McDowells Diaries were given to the I.W.M. by his Daughter Mary Tagg. He was the Senior New Zealand Presbyterian Padre and was a POW, both in Italy and St 1VB.Germany. I have a copy of the section relative to his time in Italy, if anyone would like them I would be more than happy to email them to you. Also I have written a chapter of my honours dissertation on religion in POW camps in Italy which I can email out if it interests anyone.
I copied a File for Mary regarding her Fathers time in Italy. Apparently he had a need to use the Toilet after dark. In his haste to get there he took a route that was out of bounds and the Guard fired a round that only just missed his ear. In his statement about the incident he declared that after the Guard fired the shot the need for the toilet was no longer urgent. Humour amongst misery.
Strictly speaking chaplains are not 'ranked' as Captain, Major, Lt Colonel, Colonel, Brigadier, Major General. These are the equivalent ranks. Chaplains are ranked as follows: Chaplain to the Forces 4th Class Chaplain to the Forces 3rd Class Chaplain to the Forces 2nd Class Chaplain to the Forces 1st Class Deputy Chaplain-General to the Forces Chaplain General to the Forces Before the war there was approximatelty 120 full time Chaplains, I culled all their information from the June 1939 Army List which I have. There was also some attempt in mid to late 1939 to set up once more some Chaplains on the Army Reserve List of Officers but I do not yet have a copy. {I just know a few names in my card index} They were volunteers as you say Dave. What that means is they volunteered themselves for service to the army when asked by their 'Father in God' or church leader. They were interviewed by the Chaplain-General and if suitable they would recieve a short service commission [except in war when it would be an emergency commission for the duration]. Those considered to be suitable for further service or promotion would then get a permanent commission after about three years, sometimes with their seniority back dated. They then had, apart from the rank, a number of appointments which fitted into the chain of command. There were Senior Chaplains to the forces, usually a ChF3 in a Division, would be in charge of all the Chaplains in that Div. Then there were Deputy Asssistant Chaplain-Generals [DACG] and Assistant Chaplain-Generals [ACG] in Corps commands for Lines of Communication or certain geographical areas [certainly were a few in the Desert war because the LoC was so vast]. There were also ACG's in Home Commands too, the senior chaplain in each command was appointed as one. Hope this helps to build a picture of how they were structured? Regards Matt Gibbs
Ron, I am sure you are aware but I just realised I forgot to add some pertinent info. Up to the outbreak of WW2 there was only 1 Jewish Chaplain, Senior Jewish Chaplain to the Forces, Dayan Gollop. He was responsible for the RAF and Navy as well as Army because inter war there were not so many Jews serving. [maybe you have some statistics?] I have only seen a photo of him in RAF uniform in his rank. Just before or just after the outbreak of war he recruited 2 more chaplains. One of these was Rabbi Levy. At this time Gollop realised that when the RAChD cap badge was changed in 1930 they 'forgot' to update the jewish one he had proposed in WW1. He sent in a proposal to the War Office in Dec 1939 about it, revised his proposal and it was accepted and made by Gaunts. Probably not many were made, but I am unsure of the total number of Jewish chaplains though I would love to know more. The docu-drama on Channel 4 about the relief of Belsen has some snippets of Padre Hardmann. I assume you have seen it Ron? Regards Matt
Captain the Rev. D.C. Smith, Perth Regiment, 5th Canadian Armoured Division won the MC during the Italian campaign. More informationPERTH REGIMENT OF CANADA Citation link is on the left part of the page.
A very readable account of a chaplains life is Chaplain at War by the Revd Kenneth Oliver who was padre to 11 (HAC) RHA.
I copied a File for Mary regarding her Fathers time in Italy. Apparently he had a need to use the Toilet after dark. In his haste to get there he took a route that was out of bounds and the Guard fired a round that only just missed his ear. In his statement about the incident he declared that after the Guard fired the shot the need for the toilet was no longer urgent. Humour amongst misery. I hadn't come across that particular story before Brian, indeed humour in misery.
Just done a search on Geoff's Search Engine & there are 105 results. ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 001 BAILEY TW 161017 ATTD 28/03/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 002 BALAAM CG 238530 ATTD 5TH BN 04/01/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 003 BANTING GB 159706 ATTD NO2 10/10/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 004 BARCLAY T 127097 - 21/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 005 BARRATT HN 87272 - 04/02/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 006 BARRY G 244139 ATTD 8TH BN 14/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 007 BARTLEET JC 101735 - 17/07/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 008 BARTON JG 144935 - 25/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 009 BATEMAN GH - - 25/04/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 010 BATTYE H 131300 - 20/07/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 011 BENSON BJ 205968 ATTD HQ 1ST AIRLANDING BDE 27/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 012 BERNARD G 248379 - 11/10/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 013 BERRY WHA 291270 - 27/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 014 BINGHAM CH 241309 - 31/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 015 BOND G 95796 - 21/03/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 016 BORNSTEIN H 202626 - 28/11/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 017 BOUTWOOD FS 135547 - 10/07/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 018 BOYLE A 108069 - 28/11/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 019 BROWN H 43595 - 07/11/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 020 BUSH WG 90410 ATTD 19/06/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 021 CAPE RE 260316 - 25/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 022 CARNEGIE CD 301343 - 16/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 023 CHALK RC 139815 - 21/03/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 024 CHAMBERS GJM 171381 ATTD 35 LT AA REGT 13/07/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 025 CLARKE VC 125659 - 22/09/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 026 CLARKE CG 313431 - 08/06/1946 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 027 COPLAND WR 94093 - 16/09/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 028 COSTELLO B 254173 - 05/04/1946 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 029 CURRAN JG 211517 - 04/05/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 030 DALGLEISH JD 69274 - 18/09/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 031 DAVIES JT 270524 - 11/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 032 DAVIES RV 306291 - 19/11/1947 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 033 DEAN JO 52744 - 16/04/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 034 DODGE EJ 56922 - 23/06/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 035 DOUGLAS J 244123 ATTD 5TH BN 05/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 036 ELLIOTT DB 76530 - 01/02/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 037 ELLIS CRW 144121 ATTD 6TH BN 05/01/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 038 EMSLIE D 111056 - 12/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 039 FARRUGIA BUGEJA AE 195079 ATTD 13/05/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 040 FERGUSON OK 100139 - 02/02/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 041 FIRTH PF 257744 - 07/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 042 FUNNELL EW 91362 - 30/03/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 043 GEORGE ET 178165 ATTD 22ND BN 21/06/1941 - - 22/06/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 044 GILGUNN WG 216113 - 11/12/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 045 GLENNIE JD 34719 - 30/09/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 046 GORDON AC 91866 ATTD 1ST BN 08/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 047 HAIGH JF 133404 - 23/09/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 048 HALL JFS 43114 - 06/09/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 049 HAWKSWORTH CJ 90874 - 07/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 050 HAYES J 199879 - 21/01/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 051 HIRST J 263524 - 18/02/1946 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 052 HOBLING JC 95885 ATTD 53 HAA REGT, 18/12/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 053 HOBSON MATTHEWS GG 96035 - 31/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 054 HOOKER S 231878 - 12/02/1946 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 055 HORDERN PS 77494 - 30/11/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 056 HOURIGAN DF 102157 ATTD 1ST AIRLANDING BDE 10/07/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 057 IRWIN HJ 270523 ATTD 11TH BN 20/09/1944 - - 25/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 058 JONES HS 104052 - 24/04/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 059 KAY GA 150817 ATTD 8TH BN 07/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 060 KENNY JW 287957 ATTD 6TH AIRBORNE DIV 24/03/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 061 KIDMAN H 42624 - 07/07/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 062 KIRK WD 309209 - 26/07/1946 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 063 KNOWLES JM 95803 - 01/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 064 LEVIS GA 101011 ATTD 3RD BN 04/12/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 065 MACAULAY I 121108 - 26/10/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 066 MACDOUGALL J 279927 - 10/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 067 MACPHERSON R 102573 ATTD 1ST BN THE LONDON SCOTTISH, 16/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 068 MARCHANT WG 322808 - 28/04/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 069 MARTIN F 154990 - 27/05/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 070 MCLEMAN A 91868 ATTD 2ND BN 02/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 071 MCMAHON PJ 218709 - 14/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 072 MILLS WG 123999 - 01/04/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 073 MINTON-SENHOUSE C 133104 ATTD 151 THE AYRSHIRE YEOMANRY FIELD REGT 30/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 074 MOREIN W 188503 - 18/09/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 075 MORRIS IJ 157811 ATTD 1ST BN 26/10/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 076 MORT R 101843 ATTD 5TH BN 11/06/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 077 MURRAY DW - - 06/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 078 MUSGRAVE FW 147348 ATTD 5TH BN 02/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 079 NESBITT G 163330 ATTD 8TH BN 05/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 080 NEWSON JA 191487 ATTD 5TH ROYAL INNISKILLING DRAGOON GUARDS 20/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 081 O'CALLAGHAN J 88257 - 11/04/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 082 OGILVY WT 118329 ATTD 8TH BN 25/03/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 083 PARKES RCI 322805 - 16/04/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 084 PARRY GEM 173033 ATTD 7TH BN 06/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 085 PODMORE RT 111748 - 21/05/1940 - - 23/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 086 PRICE JH 125463 - 19/12/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 087 PRYOR AS 26457 - 03/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 088 QUINN JEG 91404 - 23/09/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 089 RAWSTHORNE P 99438 ATTD 2ND BN 14/12/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 090 RICHARDSON ER 133105 ATTD HQ SQN, 9TH ARMD BDE, 19/04/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 091 RICHES LP 101549 - 01/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 092 RICKARD CB 125312 - 05/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 093 SHORT JH 139505 ATTD 1ST BN 25/10/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 094 SINTON TCJ 91501 ATTD 7TH BN 23/10/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 095 SMITH H 135499 ATTD 2ND BN 15/02/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 096 SMITH H 95864 - 15/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 097 TAYLOR HJL 188501 ATTD 29TH ARMD BDE, 11TH ARMD DIV 23/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 098 TAYLOR JS 95734 ATTD 2ND BN 30/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 099 THOMAS DD 305657 - 11/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 100 WAGG HT 294758 ATTD 11TH ARMD DIV 19/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 101 WALLACE CC 127276 ATTD 6TH BN 27/07/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 102 WATSON H 38843 - 12/11/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 103 WHITROW RH 40452 - 18/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 104 WILLIAMS AWP 216105 ATTD 113 FIELD REGT 16/12/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT 105 WILLIAMS DL 297476 ATTD NO 45 RM COMMANDO 05/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
Ron, I am sure you are aware but I just realised I forgot to add some pertinent info. Up to the outbreak of WW2 there was only 1 Jewish Chaplain, Senior Jewish Chaplain to the Forces, Dayan Gollop. He was responsible for the RAF and Navy as well as Army because inter war there were not so many Jews serving. [maybe you have some statistics?] I have only seen a photo of him in RAF uniform in his rank. Just before or just after the outbreak of war he recruited 2 more chaplains. One of these was Rabbi Levy. At this time Gollop realised that when the RAChD cap badge was changed in 1930 they 'forgot' to update the jewish one he had proposed in WW1. He sent in a proposal to the War Office in Dec 1939 about it, revised his proposal and it was accepted and made by Gaunts. Probably not many were made, but I am unsure of the total number of Jewish chaplains though I would love to know more. The docu-drama on Channel 4 about the relief of Belsen has some snippets of Padre Hardmann. I assume you have seen it Ron? Regards Matt Hi Matt Thanks for the extra info. I will ask Martin Sugarman, senior archivist to AJEX, if he can add anything to this thread. Best regards Ron
Came across this whilst trawling through the Ebay pages. Wartime WW2 German Pastor Gestapo Persecution Book 1943 on eBay (end time 21-Sep-10 20:01:11 BST)
Matt Martin Sugarman of AJEX has reminded me that there are four pages devoted to Jewish Chaplains in both World Wars in his definitive book entitled of "Fighting Back" which, as it's cover states, is the new, definitive record of British Jewry's Military Contribution in the Second World War. I show one of those pages below. Ron