Army Chaplains/Padre's

Discussion in 'British Army Units - Others' started by kingarthur, Sep 15, 2010.

  1. kingarthur

    kingarthur Well-Known Member

    This is a rather strange question but I do have my reasons for asking.

    Did Army Chaplains hold any particular rank and were they volunteers or were they already part of the regular army?


    Cheers
     
  2. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    They were given the minimum rank of Captain amd others were of higher rank right up to the 'Chaplain General' who nominally was of 'General' rank.......there were padres pre-war but a lot more guys volunteered as padres with the expansion of the Army.......The Torn Horizon covers the airborne padres at Arnhem and as a snap shot relates what they did before joining the Army.......hope this helps.....
     
  3. kingarthur

    kingarthur Well-Known Member

    They were given the minimum rank of Captain amd others were of higher rank right up to the 'Chaplain General' who nominally was of 'General' rank.......there were padres pre-war but a lot more guys volunteered as padres with the expansion of the Army.......The Torn Horizon covers the airborne padres at Arnhem and as a snap shot relates what they did before joining the Army.......hope this helps.....


    I have something in mind for a future project and that helps tremendously Niall, many thanks.
     
  4. kingarthur

    kingarthur Well-Known Member

    The Torn Horizon now ordered :)
     
  5. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    KingArthur

    You might find the attached of possible interest

    Ron
     

    Attached Files:

  6. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    I believe Padre McDowells Diaries were given to the I.W.M. by his Daughter Mary Tagg.

    He was the Senior New Zealand Presbyterian Padre and was a POW, both in Italy and St 1VB.Germany.
     
  7. kingarthur

    kingarthur Well-Known Member

    KingArthur

    You might find the attached of possible interest

    Ron


    Thanks for that Ron, until recently I hadn't honestly taking into consideration the role of the clergy during a conflict. I recently got chatting to an old chap whilst fishing and he told me about his father who was an army chaplain in the Burma campaign and that for many years after the war he still received letters and Christmas card from old comrades thanking him for being there in their hour of need. Quite moving I thought.
     
  8. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    I believe Padre McDowells Diaries were given to the I.W.M. by his Daughter Mary Tagg.

    He was the Senior New Zealand Presbyterian Padre and was a POW, both in Italy and St 1VB.Germany.

    I have a copy of the section relative to his time in Italy, if anyone would like them I would be more than happy to email them to you.
    Also I have written a chapter of my honours dissertation on religion in POW camps in Italy which I can email out if it interests anyone.:)
     
  9. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    I copied a File for Mary regarding her Fathers time in Italy.

    Apparently he had a need to use the Toilet after dark. In his haste to get there he took a route that was out of bounds and the Guard fired a round that only just missed his ear.

    In his statement about the incident he declared that after the Guard fired the shot the need for the toilet was no longer urgent.

    Humour amongst misery.
     
  10. mattgibbs

    mattgibbs Senior Member

    Strictly speaking chaplains are not 'ranked' as Captain, Major, Lt Colonel, Colonel, Brigadier, Major General. These are the equivalent ranks. Chaplains are ranked as follows:
    Chaplain to the Forces 4th Class
    Chaplain to the Forces 3rd Class
    Chaplain to the Forces 2nd Class
    Chaplain to the Forces 1st Class
    Deputy Chaplain-General to the Forces
    Chaplain General to the Forces

    Before the war there was approximatelty 120 full time Chaplains, I culled all their information from the June 1939 Army List which I have. There was also some attempt in mid to late 1939 to set up once more some Chaplains on the Army Reserve List of Officers but I do not yet have a copy. {I just know a few names in my card index}

    They were volunteers as you say Dave. What that means is they volunteered themselves for service to the army when asked by their 'Father in God' or church leader. They were interviewed by the Chaplain-General and if suitable they would recieve a short service commission [except in war when it would be an emergency commission for the duration]. Those considered to be suitable for further service or promotion would then get a permanent commission after about three years, sometimes with their seniority back dated.

    They then had, apart from the rank, a number of appointments which fitted into the chain of command. There were Senior Chaplains to the forces, usually a ChF3 in a Division, would be in charge of all the Chaplains in that Div. Then there were Deputy Asssistant Chaplain-Generals [DACG] and Assistant Chaplain-Generals [ACG] in Corps commands for Lines of Communication or certain geographical areas [certainly were a few in the Desert war because the LoC was so vast]. There were also ACG's in Home Commands too, the senior chaplain in each command was appointed as one.

    Hope this helps to build a picture of how they were structured?
    Regards
    Matt Gibbs
     
  11. mattgibbs

    mattgibbs Senior Member

    Ron, I am sure you are aware but I just realised I forgot to add some pertinent info. Up to the outbreak of WW2 there was only 1 Jewish Chaplain, Senior Jewish Chaplain to the Forces, Dayan Gollop. He was responsible for the RAF and Navy as well as Army because inter war there were not so many Jews serving. [maybe you have some statistics?] I have only seen a photo of him in RAF uniform in his rank. Just before or just after the outbreak of war he recruited 2 more chaplains. One of these was Rabbi Levy. At this time Gollop realised that when the RAChD cap badge was changed in 1930 they 'forgot' to update the jewish one he had proposed in WW1. He sent in a proposal to the War Office in Dec 1939 about it, revised his proposal and it was accepted and made by Gaunts. Probably not many were made, but I am unsure of the total number of Jewish chaplains though I would love to know more. The docu-drama on Channel 4 about the relief of Belsen has some snippets of Padre Hardmann. I assume you have seen it Ron?
    Regards
    Matt
     
  12. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member

    Captain the Rev. D.C. Smith, Perth Regiment, 5th Canadian Armoured Division won the MC during the Italian campaign.
    More informationPERTH REGIMENT OF CANADA
    Citation link is on the left part of the page.
     
  13. Derek Barton

    Derek Barton Senior Member

    A very readable account of a chaplains life is Chaplain at War by the Revd Kenneth Oliver who was padre to 11 (HAC) RHA.
     
  14. kingarthur

    kingarthur Well-Known Member

    I have read several accounts today which were very interesting, quite an eye opener indeed.
     
  15. andy007

    andy007 Senior Member

    I copied a File for Mary regarding her Fathers time in Italy.

    Apparently he had a need to use the Toilet after dark. In his haste to get there he took a route that was out of bounds and the Guard fired a round that only just missed his ear.

    In his statement about the incident he declared that after the Guard fired the shot the need for the toilet was no longer urgent.

    Humour amongst misery.

    I hadn't come across that particular story before Brian, indeed humour in misery.
     
  16. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Just done a search on Geoff's Search Engine & there are 105 results.
    ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT


    001 BAILEY TW 161017 ATTD 28/03/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    002 BALAAM CG 238530 ATTD 5TH BN 04/01/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    003 BANTING GB 159706 ATTD NO2 10/10/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    004 BARCLAY T 127097 - 21/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    005 BARRATT HN 87272 - 04/02/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    006 BARRY G 244139 ATTD 8TH BN 14/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    007 BARTLEET JC 101735 - 17/07/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    008 BARTON JG 144935 - 25/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    009 BATEMAN GH - - 25/04/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    010 BATTYE H 131300 - 20/07/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    011 BENSON BJ 205968 ATTD HQ 1ST AIRLANDING BDE 27/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    012 BERNARD G 248379 - 11/10/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    013 BERRY WHA 291270 - 27/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    014 BINGHAM CH 241309 - 31/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    015 BOND G 95796 - 21/03/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    016 BORNSTEIN H 202626 - 28/11/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    017 BOUTWOOD FS 135547 - 10/07/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    018 BOYLE A 108069 - 28/11/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    019 BROWN H 43595 - 07/11/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    020 BUSH WG 90410 ATTD 19/06/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT

    021 CAPE RE 260316 - 25/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    022 CARNEGIE CD 301343 - 16/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    023 CHALK RC 139815 - 21/03/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    024 CHAMBERS GJM 171381 ATTD 35 LT AA REGT 13/07/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    025 CLARKE VC 125659 - 22/09/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    026 CLARKE CG 313431 - 08/06/1946 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    027 COPLAND WR 94093 - 16/09/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    028 COSTELLO B 254173 - 05/04/1946 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    029 CURRAN JG 211517 - 04/05/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    030 DALGLEISH JD 69274 - 18/09/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    031 DAVIES JT 270524 - 11/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    032 DAVIES RV 306291 - 19/11/1947 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    033 DEAN JO 52744 - 16/04/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    034 DODGE EJ 56922 - 23/06/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    035 DOUGLAS J 244123 ATTD 5TH BN 05/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    036 ELLIOTT DB 76530 - 01/02/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    037 ELLIS CRW 144121 ATTD 6TH BN 05/01/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    038 EMSLIE D 111056 - 12/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    039 FARRUGIA BUGEJA AE 195079 ATTD 13/05/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    040 FERGUSON OK 100139 - 02/02/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT

    041 FIRTH PF 257744 - 07/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    042 FUNNELL EW 91362 - 30/03/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    043 GEORGE ET 178165 ATTD 22ND BN 21/06/1941 - - 22/06/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    044 GILGUNN WG 216113 - 11/12/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    045 GLENNIE JD 34719 - 30/09/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    046 GORDON AC 91866 ATTD 1ST BN 08/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    047 HAIGH JF 133404 - 23/09/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    048 HALL JFS 43114 - 06/09/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    049 HAWKSWORTH CJ 90874 - 07/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    050 HAYES J 199879 - 21/01/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    051 HIRST J 263524 - 18/02/1946 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    052 HOBLING JC 95885 ATTD 53 HAA REGT, 18/12/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    053 HOBSON MATTHEWS GG 96035 - 31/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    054 HOOKER S 231878 - 12/02/1946 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    055 HORDERN PS 77494 - 30/11/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    056 HOURIGAN DF 102157 ATTD 1ST AIRLANDING BDE 10/07/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    057 IRWIN HJ 270523 ATTD 11TH BN 20/09/1944 - - 25/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    058 JONES HS 104052 - 24/04/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    059 KAY GA 150817 ATTD 8TH BN 07/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    060 KENNY JW 287957 ATTD 6TH AIRBORNE DIV 24/03/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT

    061 KIDMAN H 42624 - 07/07/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    062 KIRK WD 309209 - 26/07/1946 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    063 KNOWLES JM 95803 - 01/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    064 LEVIS GA 101011 ATTD 3RD BN 04/12/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    065 MACAULAY I 121108 - 26/10/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    066 MACDOUGALL J 279927 - 10/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    067 MACPHERSON R 102573 ATTD 1ST BN THE LONDON SCOTTISH, 16/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    068 MARCHANT WG 322808 - 28/04/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    069 MARTIN F 154990 - 27/05/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    070 MCLEMAN A 91868 ATTD 2ND BN 02/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    071 MCMAHON PJ 218709 - 14/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    072 MILLS WG 123999 - 01/04/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    073 MINTON-SENHOUSE C 133104 ATTD 151 THE AYRSHIRE YEOMANRY FIELD REGT 30/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    074 MOREIN W 188503 - 18/09/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    075 MORRIS IJ 157811 ATTD 1ST BN 26/10/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    076 MORT R 101843 ATTD 5TH BN 11/06/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    077 MURRAY DW - - 06/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    078 MUSGRAVE FW 147348 ATTD 5TH BN 02/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    079 NESBITT G 163330 ATTD 8TH BN 05/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    080 NEWSON JA 191487 ATTD 5TH ROYAL INNISKILLING DRAGOON GUARDS 20/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT

    081 O'CALLAGHAN J 88257 - 11/04/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    082 OGILVY WT 118329 ATTD 8TH BN 25/03/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    083 PARKES RCI 322805 - 16/04/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    084 PARRY GEM 173033 ATTD 7TH BN 06/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    085 PODMORE RT 111748 - 21/05/1940 - - 23/05/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    086 PRICE JH 125463 - 19/12/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    087 PRYOR AS 26457 - 03/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    088 QUINN JEG 91404 - 23/09/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    089 RAWSTHORNE P 99438 ATTD 2ND BN 14/12/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    090 RICHARDSON ER 133105 ATTD HQ SQN, 9TH ARMD BDE, 19/04/1945 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    091 RICHES LP 101549 - 01/06/1940 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    092 RICKARD CB 125312 - 05/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    093 SHORT JH 139505 ATTD 1ST BN 25/10/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    094 SINTON TCJ 91501 ATTD 7TH BN 23/10/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    095 SMITH H 135499 ATTD 2ND BN 15/02/1942 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    096 SMITH H 95864 - 15/08/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    097 TAYLOR HJL 188501 ATTD 29TH ARMD BDE, 11TH ARMD DIV 23/09/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    098 TAYLOR JS 95734 ATTD 2ND BN 30/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    099 THOMAS DD 305657 - 11/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    100 WAGG HT 294758 ATTD 11TH ARMD DIV 19/07/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    101 WALLACE CC 127276 ATTD 6TH BN 27/07/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    102 WATSON H 38843 - 12/11/1941 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    103 WHITROW RH 40452 - 18/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    104 WILLIAMS AWP 216105 ATTD 113 FIELD REGT 16/12/1943 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
    105 WILLIAMS DL 297476 ATTD NO 45 RM COMMANDO 05/06/1944 ROYAL ARMY CHAPLAINS' DEPARTMENT
     
  17. kingarthur

    kingarthur Well-Known Member

    That fantastic Owen, thanks for taking the time to look it up and post.
     
  18. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Ron, I am sure you are aware but I just realised I forgot to add some pertinent info. Up to the outbreak of WW2 there was only 1 Jewish Chaplain, Senior Jewish Chaplain to the Forces, Dayan Gollop. He was responsible for the RAF and Navy as well as Army because inter war there were not so many Jews serving. [maybe you have some statistics?] I have only seen a photo of him in RAF uniform in his rank. Just before or just after the outbreak of war he recruited 2 more chaplains. One of these was Rabbi Levy. At this time Gollop realised that when the RAChD cap badge was changed in 1930 they 'forgot' to update the jewish one he had proposed in WW1. He sent in a proposal to the War Office in Dec 1939 about it, revised his proposal and it was accepted and made by Gaunts. Probably not many were made, but I am unsure of the total number of Jewish chaplains though I would love to know more. The docu-drama on Channel 4 about the relief of Belsen has some snippets of Padre Hardmann. I assume you have seen it Ron?
    Regards
    Matt


    Hi Matt
    Thanks for the extra info.
    I will ask Martin Sugarman, senior archivist to AJEX, if he can add anything to this thread.
    Best regards
    Ron
     
  19. kingarthur

    kingarthur Well-Known Member

  20. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Matt

    Martin Sugarman of AJEX has reminded me that there are four pages devoted to Jewish Chaplains in both World Wars in his definitive book entitled of "Fighting Back" which, as it's cover states, is the new, definitive record of British Jewry's Military Contribution in the Second World War.

    I show one of those pages below.

    Ron
     

    Attached Files:

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