Armoured Regiment War Diary Terminology

Hello Everyone,

I'm currently busy reading in to the war diary of the 21st Canadian Armoured Regiment. It some times makes reference of so called A- and B-positions. Does anyone here ring a bell what it could mean?



Regards,

Remi

 

Could they be A and B Sqns' locations?

 

I found out with an AI tool that A-Posn is the advanced units of an armoured regiment. B- Posn is the reserve or not commited force of the regiment.

Thanks for helping out.

Regards

Remi

 

I suggest it is this.

A, B and F Echelons ?

 

Was that information actually found or was it made up, though?

It seems far more likely to be squadron or echelon locations.

 

In the context of the war diary extract, they are the map references for the squadron locations.

The AI answer is, I’m sorry to say, bollocks.

Regards

Tom

 

Hello,

Thank you guys for thinking along with me. I have been reading the war diary from 21CAR from september 1944 trough november 1944. They make a separation within the daily diaries for the Fighting Echelon, A echelon and B echelon. The A- and B- positions are only mentioned in the Fighting Echelon part of the diary. The terms also appear in the 4CAB command net logbook. As far as I can gather a CAR consists out of 3 combat squadrons. And I never have come across a C- postion. I do notice A-, B- and C-squadron remarks the CAR war diary. So that led me on my own to assume that the positions arent connected to sub units. The coordinates given for the A-position regularly seem to correspond with the forward squadron at that given time. So that, combined with the AI answer led me to believe that it was a forward and rear/reserver position they were talking about.

Tom OBrien I get that you believe the answer is bollocks but there seems to be a little bit of truth in it as far as I could gather...

 

Tried reading it last night but didn't get much from it. After a second look I think I'd also go with the A and B in next to last line in the above being shorthand for "A" Squadron and "B" Squadron respectively. It is quite common to see Rifle Companies referred to as "A", "B", etc in similar documents.. I agree it is unlikely to be A and B Echelons in this context.

I'm still trying to work out what "our h(eav)y child", our "fff" and our "horses" means. I'd have to assume that fff is infantry and horse is tank from the description but it seems very unusual terminology.

Gary

 

"Heavy children" probably mean tanks. I've run into it elsewhere.

"fff" is odd. I mean, properly speaking, an armoured regiment doesn't "have" infantry, but it could refer to the infantry being supported or even being carried on the tanks, if there were any in that context.

 

If fff is infantry and horses are tanks, could 'child' and 'h[eav]y child' be subunits? Platoon and company, or platoon and troop?

Child / heavy child as Shermans/Fireflies or small/large armoured cars don't seem to fit the context.

When/where's the action on case anyone's got the GGFG history?

 

The regimental war diary entries are accessible through project44.ca (though you need to pick a date they were on the continent FIRST, I think, I got a blank page for 6 June). There is constant mention of the A and B Ech locations which strongly suggests that if there is a date where they only wrote A and B, that's waht I would default to.

Can't find the particular day in question though. Buck-Compton, what was the date?

 

The WDs for 21 Canadian Armoured Regiment (Governor General's Foot Guards) are available online from Canadiana Heritage at the below links -

War diaries, 1939-1945 : T-12722 - Héritage
War diaries, 1939-1945 : T-12723 - Héritage
War diaries, 1939-1945 : T-12724 - Héritage

Full list as at - https://wartimes.ca/canadiana-heritage-war-diary-reels/

Having had a scan read through I did notice that, pace Guards, the Regiment numbered rather than lettered its subunits, so No.1 Squadron rather than "A" Squadron, which would seem to rule out A and B meaning Squadrons. When Echelons are mentioned they are identified as such in the pages I could see though.

Gary

 

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your help and apologies for my late reply I was away for work. As mentioned I read the diary from early September 1944 trough to early November 1944. As far as I could gather I only noticed A- and B-position remarks which I was unable to connect directly to Squadron dispositions that were mentioned. In the period mentioned around the screenshot that I showed you earlier in this thread the 21st was supported by one or more companies from the LSR(M) Regiment. I haven't read the diary from that battalion yet maybe that will clarify the term FFF. I assumed it could be a reference to some sort of resistance fighters. I have, in other diaries seen mentionings of the white brigade units fighting deep in to Netherlands terretory. FFF could be Free French Forces or some deviation of it. But it would be first to see them in the region. They sometimes mention flat footed friends as wel. guess that is a nickname for infantry as well.

I'm also using the diary from the 4th canadian armoured brigade to cross reference when diary entries are vague. The diary from the brigade usually includes the summary of the combat logbook. Which usually shows who transmitted to who at what time and what was transmitted.

Chris C this particular entry can be found in: 4 Canadian Armoured Brigade war diary for October 1944 Appendix 05 4CAB Comd Net, I dont think these are on the project44 site. I found a lot of diaries on the canadian archives website. Most of them are digitized to PDF with loads of appendices which give a far better detail of time and space factores of the war diaries.



Gary Kennedy: I downloaded all of the diaries for September - November 1944 from all units that were involved in the battle of the Scheldt. Those that werent allready digitized I digitized my self and had them OCR scanned. Now working trough them to plot them on original GSGS maps I have. But thank you for the links non the less!

Regards,

Remi