Arbeits Kommando 844/4 Thale, Harz Mtns, Germany

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by Katharine, Apr 19, 2016.

  1. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    It's a pleasure. Please post whatever information you get r.e. Thale.
     
  2. Lindele

    Lindele formerly HA96

    Hi Katharine,

    I have been lucky, because my initial contact in Thale put me on to a teacher for history at the local high school. This chap has researching the war times of Thale and has written a brochure about it (in German). He send me a longish mail, which I still need to translate, but there is lots of information you may not know. To complete his research he would like to receive information about your grandfather and I will send you a PM with the details. For example he would be thrilled to receive a photo of a British POW who was in Thale, which would be the first one he would have seen in all the 10 years of his research.

    Stefan.
     
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  3. Lindele

    Lindele formerly HA96

    Following is my humble translation of what this chap send me so far:


    “Unfortunately, the available records about the POWs in Thale are less then complete. This is due to the fact that administration was away from Thale and in military hands rather than with local civil people.

    During the last ten years, and in connection with a scholars project I have been trying to find local contemporary witnesses. In brief what I know so far:

    The POWs lived in huts in the Georg Strasse (today called Musestieg).

    Interesting, that at the same time and in other huts within the camp there was a branch of the German Navy Intelligence Store (whatever that was?). A picture exists in the local archives of these huts from the 19 sixties.

    The British POWs apparently were better treated than for example the ones from Russia.

    Local kids and youngsters were playing soccer with the POWs.

    I do not know yet were most of the POWs worked.

    No. 844/4 probably meant Camp 4 Thale. 844/1 was the camp with POWs from Poland and Ukraine working in the forestry.

    Thale at the time had up to 1000 POWs most likely working in the very large local steel works producing for the arms industry.

    Other smaller work places are known, none of them specifically for POWs from England.

    US Forces started to reached parts of Thale on April 19, 1945 approaching the town from the south from Hexentanzplatz and occupied the Oberstadt up to the railway line. On April 20, the rest of the town was taken.

    I will try to come up with additional information in the next weeks.”

    Stefan.
     
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  4. Katharine

    Katharine Member

    Wow, Stefan, I can't believe this! Thank you so much.

    I know there is a photo of my Grandfather as a POW in the family;I will have to try and locate that. This is really fantastic. I scarcely know what to say.

    Katharine
     
  5. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    I am working through a 600 page document that the US government generated in 1945 from interrogations of senior Kreigsmarine officers relating to the German Naval Supply System.I think that the Kreigsmarine had an important office at Goslar to the west of Thale, which I believe was also the HQ of one of the Third Reich Military Districts.

    What Stefan has revealed confirms the existent of a Kriegsmarine depot at Thale which I have described as a supply depot

    One senior Kriegsmarine officer,Vice Admiral Bruno Machen,the Admiral Quartermaster,the officer charged with matching material requirements with naval operations in 1942-1944 was taken from Hohenrode (in the Harz ) in August 1945 to Bremerhaven for interrogation. Hohenrode is a few miles north of Goslar which may have been the Vice Admiral's base as the officer commanding the naval units in the Harz area.

    The report is typical of those derived from the typewriters of the era having smudges of the text and maps relating to the Kriegsmarine location units.

    Will continue to digest it
     
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  6. Lindele

    Lindele formerly HA96

    Harry,

    thanks and I have passed it on to my contact in Thale. This Information may complete some of his research.

    Stefan.
     
  7. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Stefan,

    Digressing,the document is very comprehensive and revealing regarding Kriegsmarine supply/operations interface

    Regarding the invasion of Norway,supply ships were disguised as coalers,ie,coaling ships.

    Three levels of U Boats bases are listed...levels of importance.I would think that Allied intelligence may have detail of the main bases and those of lesser importance.

    Another interesting aspect was the specification of diesel produced from the Fischer Tropsch process (the raw material input being coal) as the Third Reich coped with shortfall in fuel oil /lubricant availability as the war progressed.

    Diesel produced from coal regeneration was not able to meet the specification for U Boats which were equipped with high speed diesels.The solution was to add hydrogen peroxide to coal derived diesel to make it fit for use in high speed diesels.
     
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  8. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    Not quite on topic but you might be interested in a dig the VBGO did in Thale last year. It was the single grave of a Soviet (Ukrainian) POW who had died on the death march in 1945.
    His burial was last week or the week before.
    He has been identified and they are trying to find living relatives.
     
  9. Lindele

    Lindele formerly HA96

    Thanks Kate,

    I have already send them an Email to send me details as to where it was compared to Arbeits-Kommando 844/4

    Stefan.
     
  10. Lindele

    Lindele formerly HA96

    Harry,

    as before, you continue to impress me with your technical knowledge.

    Stefan.
     
  11. Lindele

    Lindele formerly HA96

    View attachment Mitteldeutsche Zeitung_Bericht Grabungseinsatz Westerhausen_19.04.15.pdf View attachment Artikel_Mitteldeutsche Zeitung_Beisetzung Westerhausen_16.04.16.pdf Kate,

    VBGO replied very fast and clarified a few things as well as adding more information.
    Attached are two articles of the local Newspaper of Thale. On 21 April 2015 they published the news about what you mentioned above. One year later on 16 April 2016 and having identified the soldier, the Newspaper published the burial of Peter Bondavenkow from Ukraine, born 29 July 1904 and most likely married to Antonida. Apparently at the beginning of April 1945 he was, together with 3000 others, send on a death march from the concentration camp Langenstein-Zwieberge in easterly direction and in Westerhausen (Thale) he was too weak to keep on walking. May be injured as well, he was left behind and taken care of by locals in what was called Schuetzenhaus at the time. The locals living in the Schuetzenhaus could eventually not save his life and when the US forces approached Westerhausen they quickly buried his body in the nearby forest where the members of VBGO found his remains including some personal belongings.

    Stefan.
     
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  12. Lindele

    Lindele formerly HA96

    Katharine,

    attached is a street map of Thale of today indicating where the camp used to be. Some of the huts were still existing in 1967, but they are all gone today. A photo taken in 1950 including all the huts as they were in 1945, will be sent with a PM.
    Should you decide to visit Thale, the chap is pretty helpful and will most certainly welcome you and your family to take you around. I would certainly encourage you to do that.

    Stefan.
     

    Attached Files:

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  13. Lindele

    Lindele formerly HA96

    Kathrine,

    now that my contact in Thale has your Email address, he will most likely communicate directly with you. Myself and I am sure the other members would be interested what happens with your research in the future and if you do decide to visit Thale, what was it like.

    Stefan.
     
  14. Katharine

    Katharine Member

    Stefan,

    Thank you very much for the map of Thale. It is fascinating to see where the camp was in relation to the town. I have seen the photo of the camp.
    I would be very keen to meet your contact when we visit Thale.

    My father and two brothers(both fluent German speakers) are interested in coming too;most likely Spring 2017.

    I am amazed at the amount of information I have now. Yes, of course I will post anything else I find out.

    Katharine
     
  15. Lindele

    Lindele formerly HA96

    Katharina,

    this is excellent News, my contact will be releaved about the 2 fluent German Speakers, because his English is not that good and I am sure he will be happy to be your host.

    Stefan.
     
  16. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

  17. Katharine

    Katharine Member

    Vitellino,

    Thank you for that.
    Yesterday I found online, that Tommy Shields kept a Diary of his time in Thale, from early 1944 to the end of the War. This Diary plus some postcards seem to be in Larne Museum, which seems appropriate. Apparently he donated them to the Museum, shortly before he died.

    I would be most interested to see what he wrote, as his time there overlapped my Grandfather's time there. At the moment, I am not sure whether I can get over there to see the Diary, or indeed whether I would be allowed to read it if I made the trip. I made a copy of the page if you cannot see it online.

    www.secondworldwarni.org/print.aspx?pagerecordid=289


    Katharine
     
  18. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Hello Katharine,

    I have another inmate of Thale for you. He is Tel. Peter Dagg of HM submarine Sahib. I've attached page 1 of of his liberation report.

    Regards,

    Vitellino
     

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  19. Katharine

    Katharine Member

    Hello Vitellino,

    Thank you very much for that. It is fascinating to see others who were also in Thale.
    Interestingly, Peter Dagg 'left' Thale 9th April 1945-the same day as my Grandfather cut the wires to escape with 'two others'. I have no idea who the two others were. The date for my Grandfather's departure from Thale was 9th April too.

    I note too, that he was in PG52 briefly and later Stalag 8a before Milag und Marlag Nord. His time in Thale is almost exactly the same to the day, as my Grandfather's and that of Tommy Shields.

    Katharine
     
  20. Hendy5

    Hendy5 WW2 Research

    Katharine, I have only just discovered this discussion and I was wondering what additional information you might have uncovered about the camp at Thale. I have known Tommy Shields' daughter for many years and about 30 years ago she asked me to photocopy the diary in case it went missing. I did this and then many years later it went back to Tommy then subsequently to Larne Museum. I have transcribed the diary and am researching Tommy's remarkable war years. This is a long shot but if you got to Thale I would be very interested in what you found there.

    John H
     

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