Any info on Lt Wilfred Charles Prince DCM of 11 Hussars and REME

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Bing, Mar 11, 2011.

  1. Bing

    Bing Member

    Forgot to say - the investiture invitation was 1945.
     
  2. Bing

    Bing Member

    Re my Dad's REME service and any clues to his being awarded acting Capt rank - I know he was based in Egypt, mainly Cairo from 1943. I have pics of him at a REME Inspectorate Dinner . He married my Mum in Cairo in Jan 1944 so I believe he remain based in Cairo until the end of the war
    Does this give any clue to his REME unit? And are there any sources for REME war diaries in Cairo/Egypt post 1943?
    Thanks for any help.
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    His units diary for Africa will be in the WO 169 series but that series contains over 20,000 diaries I think. If you know the unit I'll find the diary if one exists.
     
  4. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    ...
    All I do know from photos in his album was that he was based in or around Cairo and was in the REME Inspectorate (I dont know what the "inspectorate" is?) until he returned to UK in 1945...

    Hi Laurie - this might help you to understand what the Inspectorate was if you haven't read it already:

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/reme-raoc/38789-r-e-m-e-inspectorate-e-m-e-directorates-take.html

    If your dad was with the REME Inspectorate in Egypt until the end of the war, then these two refs are for the relevant war diaries.

    WO 169/15694 R.E.M.E. Inspectorate 1944 Jan.- Dec.
    WO 169/19631 R.E.M.E. Inspectorate 1945 Jan.- May

    I'm sure I read somewhere the location of the Inspectorate HQ, but not found it yet. Hopefully will come across it soon.

    Regarding the photos - do they have anything on the back of them that might indicate a unit - such as B/W or wksp, etc?

    The info you received about service records is about right. I sent for some in January and received them towards the end of November.

    Just a question in general - would the Army Lists be able to help regarding the promotion to Capt does anyone know?

    Regards.

    Jules.
     
  5. Bing

    Bing Member

    Thanks Jules and Drew.
    Have just lost last draft post so will retype!!
    Will have a look at photos again as suggested to see if any clues
    Almost ceratin Dad was in REME in Cairo from 1943 until he returned to the UK at the end of the war (when he was still in the REME - see upthread)
    I beleive he was in the insepctorate as I have an invitation to the HQ REME Inspectorate staff dinner held in Dec 1943. My Mum attended before they were married and I have a photo of them there. The invitation even has autographs of other attendees (friends?) on the back.
    They married in Jan 1944 and their wedding cert says they were married in St Andrews in Cairo and his rank is shown as Lieut. NYA. REME
    Any idea what NYA means?
    Residence at time of marriage is shown as GHQ MEF.
    Also says that the marriage cert register is held at Kasr-el-Nil Barracks. Is this a clue or were all marraige certs for BA in Cairo held here?
    Sorry - more questions!!
    Thanks for all your help
    Laurie
     
  6. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    I don't know about the marriage certs I'm afraid, but NYA is Not Yet Allocated. My Grandad became a commissioned officer in August 1943 and the Officer Field Reports show him as still an "NYA Lieut" in December 1943.
     
  7. Bing

    Bing Member

    What does "not yet allocated" actually mean? Does it mean he was in the Inspectorate in Dec 1943 but possibly due to be reposted in Jan 1944?. Or was it that his assignment to REME Inspectore had not yet been finalised? I assume his service records will show what actually happened !!
     
  8. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    The service record will hopefully give you the detail you need about his postings and NYA I believe was to indicate that he had not yet been allocated his new army number - which would have changed once he was commissioned. Why this seemed to take so long and whether it was linked to a unit posting would be interesting to know. I'd not given it too much thought until now :)
     
  9. Bing

    Bing Member

    Yes, the timings do fit with your suggestion that he had not been allocated his new army no. yet.
    The London Gazette (issued 21st Jan 1944) shows my Dad being made up to Lt (with his new number) on 18th Sept 1943. I guess the London Gazette issue would be the official declaration of his new number. He married in Jan 1944 as NYA, so these are very similar timings to your Grandad's story.
    Thanks again for all this detailed help. To some it may not be an essential part of his history but it all helps to put more flesh on the personal side of the story.
     
  10. Bing

    Bing Member

    Just for everyone's infomation, I just checked on progress on my Dad's army records as it is coming up to a year since applying.
    The Army office was very helpful and said they were currently dealing with March 4th 2011 queries (today is Feb 14th 2012). My letter of acknowledgement from them was dated March 7th 2011. So very close now!! Hope I am not too disappointed by what may turn out to be very sparse records but only one way to find out!!
     
  11. Bing

    Bing Member

    Hi everyone. Finally got my Dad's records and so have a few questions (mainly about his REME service) that I hope you can shed some light on.
    Got lots of pieces of paper which duplicate information (Form B103, Form B200, B271, B2066 and B199A). Also got hard backed booklets Regular Army Certificate of Service and Officer's record of Service. Despite the volume it condenses down to a only a couple of sides of headline facts. However it provides a bit more detail but no revelations.

    Questions relate to his time when transfered to the REME and post commision. In the following transcription of the records there are references to postings to X(1) list, also X4A or XIV or XIV (ME). The XIV looks like it could be roman numerals on one form. Then finally "X" IVA (152 Transit Camp). This all took place in and around Egypt/Cairo.

    Can anyone suggest what these X references are about? Any other comments would also be welcome. Thanks

    [FONT=&quot]15th May 1941 Posted to “Middle East RAC school and base depot on S.O.S. (struck off strength?) this unit and posted to X(1) list.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]12th March 1943 posted to RAC B/D (Base Depot?) X4A or X1V or X1V ME (Different entries on different sheets ???).[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]19th April 1943 d Attached to REME/RAOC Base Depot[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]August 21st 1943 Att. No.1 ITD (???)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Sept 17th 1943 discharge to commission in REME[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Sept 25th 1943 Posted as Lieut. to REME inspectorate as Admin Officer
    Virtually no more info between 1943 and 1945. Did officers maintain their own records as much of it is in Dad's handwriting, countersigned by his CO or superior.??
    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]March 1st 1945 Posted to “X” IVA (152 Transit Camp)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]March 19th 1945 To UK on embarking 9 SOS (struck off strength?) MEF[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]April 30th 1945 Posted to 14 TTC REME, at Arborfield

    [/FONT]Also I had asked upthread about his acting captain promotion. Only record is in his Officer's Record of Service. Two 1944 dates are given, the simple entry is countersigned by his CO but no detail of why, where or postings. So looks like the ned of the trail on this question but at least we know he was an acting capt for some period.

    Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.
    cheers
    Laurie
     
  12. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    Hi Laurie. Pleased to hear you now have your Dad's service record. My Grandad's blue officers book was sent to my cousin when she applied for his records. He would write in his movements and promotions in this book but he didn't write up his own service record information.

    X-list information is here: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/service-records/19949-x-lists-service-records.html

    The numbers after the x are often written as roman numerals as well. The "a" following a number ie: X4(a) doesn't appear to mean much. I noted that different ranks sent to a transit camp before being sent home would have an "a" added after the X number while others would not.

    (Just having some breakfast so will post again in a bit ;) )
     
  13. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    SOS is struck off strength and BD is Base Depot.

    In 1943 there was an RAOC/REME Base Depot in the ME and your Dad would have been sent there until he could be used by another unit. In some REME files I have, there are references to men being drawn from the RAOC/REME BD sometimes just as a temporary measure.

    Attached to 1 ITD - that's an Infantry Training Depot. I cannot find a War Diary reference for this in 1943 but this is the one for 1942:

    Detecting your browser settings - which is based in the ME.

    My understanding of the REME is that all men had to be trained as "fighting" soldiers, but I thought he would have had this training already from your previous posts.

    After being with the Inspectorate until 1945 he was then posted to 152 Transit Camp before being sent home to the UK to Arborfield.

    Detecting your browser settings

    The Inspectorate war diary files may well mention that your Dad was promoted to Captain and possibly why. They would be a good place to look. If these files are anything like the REME Directorate files they can contain hundreds of pages - so if you cannot get to Kew it would be well worth getting an estimate first and perhaps then only copy field returns and appendices.

    Hope this helps a bit.

    Jules.

    P.S Do you have any reference "MEPL" in your records linked to your Dad's commission?
     
  14. Bing

    Bing Member

    Hi Jules,
    Thanks very much for the info and the links. The suggestion of looking at the Inspectorate War Diaries is definitely something to follow up so I will look into this more to understand how to go about it. I live in Yorkshire so Kew is not a day trip unfortunately!!!

    I can’t see any reference to MEPL around the time of his commission. What does this mean?
    One problem is that I may not be spotting some info or abbreviations that look of no consequence to me but could tell all you guys something of note. So any hints of what else to look for would be much appreciated.
    And more questions below!! Sorry to keep asking more but with so many bits of partly duplicated info in his service record, every time I look there are more questions!!

    As you suggest Dad would have already trained for combat as he was awarded his DCM whilst in combat in the Western Desert with the 11th Hussars as an armoured car commander. However one fact that may be relevant to the ITC posting is that in late 1940 he qualified from a “Q1 Driver and Mechanic Instructor Course” . So could he have been at the ITC as an armoured car driving instructor or something of that sort?
    Also it is not clear when he was posted to the REME. In 1941 he was still shown as in the 11th Hussars. The 1941 entry I listed above says he was “SOS this unit” and assigned to the x(1) list. Does this imply that this is when he moved to the REME? However his records show a ditto under 11th Hussars all the way to 1943 when he is granted his commission in the REME. Confusing to me!!
    I mentioned before that he was at the Platoon No 12 ME OCTU for his officer training from which his records show him as being appointed 2nd Lt in the REME on 18th Sept 1943.
    A different question re his time in the 11th Hussars. His records show that in 1939 he was awarded a General Service medal with clasp Palestine. From his records we know that he spent time in Palestine (in Safad, Nablus and Jerusalem) from 1938 as an armoured car driver. Is this medal given to all those who served in Palestine or does it signify something more?
    And a final bit of info for interest – my Dad’s officer book is brown/beige and was issued by GHQ MEF. Is your grandad’s blue book one that is issued in the UK?
    Thanks again for all your help. As I have said before, many of these questions are in the fine detail but they all add to the story which we never got when Dad was alive
    Laurie
     
  15. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    Hi Laurie,

    Pleased to have helped. There are people here on the forum who can do copies of war diaries at a much cheaper cost than TNA can. This thread tells you what to expect if you do decide to visit Kew yourself:

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/research-material/15595-national-archives-kew-tips.html

    MEPL is a mystery to me. It's on my Grandad's service record in various places but haven't found out what it could mean. I have always assumed the officers book was given to Grandad when he became an officer in August '43 whilst in Egypt.

    If you don't mind posting up copies of the relevant pages of the service record, then I'm sure others here will take a look and help you out too. If for the time being you change the title of the thread to "Help decipher service records - 11 Hussars and REME" or similar, it may help to open up your thread a bit more. Unfortunately I don't know anything about 11 Hussars so can't help any further in that respect.

    And don't worry about having lots of questions. :)

    Jules.
     
  16. Bing

    Bing Member

    Hi again Jules,
    Just a thought . Since your Grandad was commissioned in August 1943 in Egypt and (I assume) was in/joined the REME, could he and my Dad have known each other or have trained at the same time?? I have a group photo of Dad and his fellow trainees at the Pre OCTU training (Platoon No 12 ME OCTU) at Tel-El-Kebire in Egypt, August/Sept 43. I’ll get it scanned and find out how to put it up here for you to see. You never know!!
    Thanks to your links re the X notes in his records, I am getting a better idea of what he was doing. It looks like he was being assigned to various units, possibly as a trainer/driving instructor.
    Thanks again.
    Laurie
     
  17. Bing

    Bing Member

    Hi Jules
    I hope I have attached the photo of my Dad at the OCTU in 1943. He is on the far right in the middle row.
    Laurie
     

    Attached Files:

    RosyRedd likes this.
  18. Bing

    Bing Member

    Here is one of the pages of Dad's army records at the time (1941 to 1943) he was in the 11th Hussars before being commisioned and transferred into the REME. Any interpretation/comments would be welcomed.
    Lauire
     

    Attached Files:

  19. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    Hi Laurie - First of all, thank you very much for sharing the photo. I don't know if your Dad and my Grandad were there together, but my Dad can't be sure whether or not the chap on the far right top row is not Grandad ! :lol: It would be a tremendous coincidence if it were. Anyway it is lovely to see a photo of your Dad as it puts a face to the story.

    I took a look at the service record page. Your Dad was still with the RAC Base Depot up until his commission, (is how I would read the entries), during which time he was attached to the REME/RAOC and REME Base Depots and ITD.

    He was acting paid staff sergeant in 1943 and then relinquished his paid acting rank to war substantive sergeant (44 days towards war substantive staff sergeant).

    Have you information yet about when he left the UK for the Middle East?

    Jules.
     
  20. RemeDesertRat

    RemeDesertRat Very Senior Member

    Thats a lovely photo, thanks for sharing.
    Theres a variety of headgear too, I see an Aussie in middle of middle row and two Canadians? (pointy hats)?
     

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