A bit of an enigma...

Discussion in '1940' started by skimmod, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. skimmod

    skimmod Senior Member

    Hello All,
    I'm looking for some words of logic or perhaps some assistance in explaining this one!

    I have a soldier called Fusilier John White 3127697, who served in the 2nd Bn Royal Scots Fusiliers.

    In the CWGC documents and on his headstone it gives a date of death of the 10th May 1940.
    He is buried alongside his fellow Fusiliers in Bedford House cemetery who all died on the 27th May 1940.
    So here is the problem:
    The battalion only came to this area on the 26th-28th May. At no other time were they in this area.
    I have a temporary grave card that tells me he was buried between the railway line and the crater along with 5 others that were killed on the 27th.

    So if he were killed on the 10th, why was he buried on the 27th with the others?
    And if killed on the 27th, why have all the records shown him to die on the 10th?

    I'm hugely confused!

    ( Casualty Details )

    any help! thanks all in advance.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. skimmod

    skimmod Senior Member

    this is my rough translation of the above:

    White J

    Dark blond hair. The head totally unrecognisable. Had a name tag on the chest – was kept. 1 handkerchief – 1 comb.

    Further nothing else found – medium stature.

    Previously buried: Old grave 30 in the countryside left of the grave 62E about 30m and along the railway.

    22nd March 1941
     
  3. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Contact cwgc and ask them if they have further info
     
  4. skimmod

    skimmod Senior Member

    Just sent them an email. - cheers.
     
  5. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    Is it because he died the other side of the canal to his other mates that died the same day.
    WHITE, JOHN Fusilier 3127697 10/05/1940 30 Royal Scots Fusiliers United Kingdom Enclosure No.6 V. C. 8. BEDFORD HOUSE CEMETERY [​IMG]
    CLARK, ALEXANDER Fusilier 3130481 10/05/1940 19 Royal Scots Fusiliers United Kingdom B. 4. BUS HOUSE CEMETERY [​IMG]
    LANGLEY, AUSTIN RICHARD Fusilier 6459647 10/05/1940 19 Royal Scots Fusiliers United Kingdom Grave 1. VLISSEGEM CHURCHYARD [​IMG]
    MILNER, STANLEY Fusilier 3131433 10/05/1940 17 Royal Scots Fusiliers United Kingdom C. 36. BUS HOUSE CEMETERY

    Bedford house cemetery.
    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...26ad8f9!8m2!3d50.8286006!4d2.8905038?hl=en-GB

    Bus house Cemetery.
    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...ca2c7674!8m2!3d50.8130117!4d2.886861?hl=en-GB
    Vlissegeem Churchyard nr De Haane Ostened so that day they must have been moving towards the coast or away from it.
    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...ca2c7674!8m2!3d50.8130117!4d2.886861?hl=en-GB
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
  6. skimmod

    skimmod Senior Member

    cheers RCG.
    The problem is I have them on the nominal roles for the 20th of May.
    The unit never past through this area until the 27th.
    I have their temporary grave cards and they are buried in the same row as those that we know died on that same day.
    2Lt RV Cholmondeley for one, who is mentioned in the counter attack.

    this really is very odd indeed.

    Also I have a witness to Langley being wounded at Arras as part of A Company along side Capt. Adamson.

    this really is bloomin strange!

    they were in Amiens on the 10th, Prouville on the 11th, Caunchy on the 12th, ' Manchy' near St Pol on the 13th only crossing the Belgian border on the 16th.

    I'm wondering if this was the last date they were registered somewhere, as a draft left 2 IBD on the 10th to join the battalion?
    would they take a "last known" date do you think?
     
  7. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    Indeed it is strange.
    CWGC usually, if date of death is unknown they put two dates presumably date last recorded and date found. A lot of the Royal Norfolk's are listed like that.
    PRETTY, HORATIO HERBERT
    Rank:Corporal Service No:5770286
    Date of Death:Between 10/05/1940 and 02/10/1940
    Age:26
    Regiment/Service:Norfolk Regiment2nd Bn.
    Grave Reference:2. F. 7.
    Cemetery:
    LE PARADIS WAR CEMETERY, LESTREM
     
  8. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    UK, Commonwealth War Graves, 1914-1921 and 1939-1947
    Name: John Edward White
    Death Date: 10 May 1940
    Cemetery: Le Paradis War Cemetery
    Burial Country: France
    Father: Alfred White
    Mother: Lily White
    Regimental Number: 2039749
    Region or Memorial: France
    40465_291521-00041.jpg

    If you read the image it gives a date of death ranging from 10 May - 20 Jun

    TD
     
  9. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    Sorry TD but I think you have the wrong J White.
     
  10. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Seems you are right, from post 1 I was looking for a John White died 10 May 1940, I have forgotten to check the service numbers - :blush:

    I will have another go - thanks for correcting me

    TD
     
  11. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    This is the guy I think/hope :unsure:

    UK, Army Roll of Honour, 1939-1945
    Name: John White
    Given Initials: J
    Rank: Fusilier
    Death Date: May 1940
    Number: 3127697
    Birth Place: Glasgow
    Residence: Ayr
    Regiment at Enlistment: Royal Scots Fusiliers
    Branch at Enlistment: Infantry
    Theatre of War: France and Belgium Campaign, 1939/40
    Regiment at Death: Royal Scots Fusiliers
    Branch at Death: Infantry

    TD
     
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  12. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Your man was first reported ‘Missing’ on Casualty list No 244 dated 2 July 1940 alongside 26 others of the same regiment, the date is given as ‘after 26.5.40’.

    He is finally confirmed as ‘Died’ on Casualty list No 616 dated 13 September 1941. The date is given as ‘approx 10.5.40’.

    Between the two casualty lists he was posted in the ‘List of missing March 1941’. This list is circulated to POW camps in an attempt to trace missing servicemen.

    I assume that his body took some time to be recovered and therefore his date of death is very approximate.
     
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  13. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    10th May 1940. 65 soldiers are recorded to have died in Belgium. 4 from the Scots fusiliers one is recorded as having died between 10/5/40 and 4/6/40.Richard Langley. As the 10th was when the Germans started their main thrust into Netherlands, and Belgium.

    As these 4 S.Fs are buried closer to the French border than either Netherlands or Luxembourg it is logic to think that they were killed by bombing or the strafing of BEF convoys heading across Belgium to meet the Germans, to fulfil Plan D.

    As Belgium was a neutral country in theory no BEF troops would be allowed into the country until the Germans attacked.

    Now there are no S.Fs units known to have been in the area at the time. So is it possible they could have been dressed as civilians in refugee columns heading the other way and again strafed.

    A complete and utter stupid statement I know.

    But after reading this.

    Dark blond hair. The head totally unrecognisable. Had a name tag on the chest – was kept. 1 handkerchief – 1 comb. Further nothing else found – medium stature.

    I remember reading this, so added 2 and 2 and made 5.

    From AT THE SHARP END. By Peter Hart. The 2nd Royal Norfolk Regiment 1940-45.

    By the spring of the offence, officers were aware of the existence of the unpromising named “Plan D “. In the event of a German offensive, this envisaged the immediate movement of the BEF across Belgium to take up positions on the river Dyle. The Norfolk’s were to take up advanced position at Wavre some 25miles south of Brussels. Normal reconnaissance was impossible so the Norfolk officers bent the rules to achieve their goal.

    Captain Peter Barclay, A company 2nd Norfolk’s. “It was an extraordinary performance because we weren’t supposed to go in uniform, so mufti had to be sent out to us. We all went in mufti suits by car across to the Belgium Eastern frontier. There on the ground, we reconnoitred the positions we were to take in the event of the Germans attacking from that angle. We knew exactly where to go and what positions to dig as soon as we arrived there”.

    The real war burst with awe inspiring force on 10th May 1940 when the Germans tore up the rule book and launched a pile driving offensive, bypassing the Maginot line completely, tearing ferociously through neutral Luxembourg and Belgium.


    Your man was first reported ‘Missing’ on Casualty list No 244 dated 2 July 1940 alongside 26 others of the same regiment, the date is given as ‘after 26.5.40’.

    So was he not put on the missing list until more men were missing to cover up that he was in Belgium before he should have been?

    page 39
    The 2nd Norfolk Regiment
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
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  14. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    From member amberdog45 - his will details show 10th May 1940
    White's Will.JPG

    TD
     
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  15. skimmod

    skimmod Senior Member

    cheers all for the thoughts.

    It is just really odd that they would be buried in exactly the same positions as others of their companies.
    Really interesting stuff RCG, i had no idea that this kind of thing happened!

    But it can't be him as I have an eye witness report that James White was alive and kicking on the 20th just before Arras.

    Tony please can you help me with these casualty lists? I'd really like to see the parts related to these fellows.

    TD, I have his will but they just record the death as reported by the CWGC. which can't be correct as I have him alive 10 days later.

    thanks again all for some really good perspectives on this rather strange one.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    OK thats fine - sometimes coming from a different direction may throw up something that helps - sometimes it just churns up the same errors

    TD
     
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  17. skimmod

    skimmod Senior Member

    I'm working through the Times "Roll of Honour" to see when he crops up.
    really appreciate the help.
    thanks all.
     
  18. skimmod

    skimmod Senior Member

    Found it..
    He was reported Killed in the times on the 20th October 1941.

    alongside Cpl Moore W. ( but that doesn't mean much I'm afraid)

    still.. these mysteries keep me from getting into trouble.
     
  19. RCG

    RCG Senior Member, Deceased

    MOORE, WILLIAM
    Rank:Corporal
    Service No:3127527
    Date of Death:27/05/1940
    Age:30
    Regiment/Service:Royal Scots Fusiliers 2nd Bn.
    Grave Refer C. 39.
    Cemetery: BUS HOUSE CEMETERY
     
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  20. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    For interest Cpl Moore, 3127527, is reported 'Died' on list 616 alongside Fus White, date given as 'Approx 10.5.40'.

    Skimmod, have sent you a message.
     
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