93rd anti-tank regiment transfer?

Hi all,

Just need a second opinion on whether my great grandfather was transferred to the 93rd anti-tank regiment (argyle & sutherland highlanders) for a short period whilst in Italy. This is the only trace I can find of it in his service records, he was previously an anti air gunner at Monte Cassino and infantry at el alamien and alam el halfa

Many thanks

 

Weem0,

Do you have the previous pg. of the record? The first entry 4/12/1944.

Could you (if known) please add his full name, Date of Birth and Service Number is 6021650? It will help others to help you.

(Added 19/3/2026) George Phelps, b. 22/7/1916 and Service No. is 6021650 Attached images are not indexed and cannot be searched).

 

Hi David, just uploading his full service records, do let me know if this works,

Many thanks

 

I see a line in the reverse of Service and Casualty Form, Sheet II. It starts with "X 6 (45)"? But it looks to me like it could be "Inf (A&SH)". This would make more sense of the remainder, which looks like "in rank of Pte" (private) - a rank which did not exist in the gunners.

Looking at wikipedia, 1st A&SH were in Italy and so were the 8th, in different divisions.

That's just my quick look!

 

the 6th were in Italy and were gunners so that was where I was coming from in my conclusion.

 

The thing about 93rd (6th Battalion A&SH) Anti tank Regiment is that it was both an Royal Artillery Anti-Tank Regiment and an Argyll and Sutherland Highland Battalion of the Territorial Force. The unit had been raised as an infantry unit and the Infantry may have considered the soldiers "loaned" to the Gunners for the duration. Thus, the soldiers may have been privates rather than gunners and worn Scottish head dress The Anti-tank and Light AA were seen as the army's reserve of manpower. By late 1944, the temporary gunners were being transferred back to the infantry. Light AA were being combed through for individual reinforcements and the towed 17 pounder batteries in corps anti-tank regiments were used as infantry.

Your grandfather was not the sort of soldier popular with the authorities. His main contribution to the battle of El; Alamein seems to have been to refuse to go on a raid, resulting in a guilty verdict at a Field General Court Martial and two years hard labour.

He must have spent some time in the Middle East glasshouse. (Ever seen Sean Connery in The Hill?) This must have occupied the first seven months of 1943 as his posting to the Gunners is in September 1943 where he is transferred to 103 bty of 26 Light AA Regiment, the divisional Light AA for 8th Indian Division.

For three weeks in January 1944 he was paid extra as a cook(?) One week at the end of May '44 he was in No2 Gen Hospital and then paid as a cook on some temporary duty for two weeks in July '44.

4 Dec '44 transferred to 6 A&SH

AWOL for 16 hours 27-28 jan 1945 results in 8 days close confinement (Regimental Jail) and one day loss of pay.

March 45 transferred to a Reallocation centre"

The transfer to the RASC

 

Hi Sheldrake,

He was with his infantry unit before el alamien so I believe he may have served at alam el halfa before hand, his unit was pretty banged up before the action at el alamien to begin with so this could be what affected his opinion of going on a raid,

As for the transfer to the A&S highlanders, someone has suggested to me it might be the 1st battalion? As they were the same division at the time, but for me the fact hes down as a gunner makes me think it was the 6th battalion,
If so I now need to find out what he was getting up to during that time with the unit or just what the unit was doing when he served with them,

Many thanks for your help,

 

Two pointers re transfer to 6 Bn A&SH /93 Atk.

Ref your second upload
Page 1. Line 1
Authority 6/45 X list(4) Unit CMF Trans to Argyl and Sutherland Highlanders Rank Gunner from 4/ 12/44 suggests 6 Bn

Page 7
Authority 6/45 X4 Trans to Inf A & S H in rank of pte & posted X4 to 6 bn IRTD (Infantry Regiment Training Depot)

Mention again of 6 bn

P14 Service record has an entry for six months service in 8th Indian Division CMP (Corps of Military Police) as traffic Control. This does not appear anywhere else. Did he pull a fast one and tell the RASC that he had been on traffic control form the time he was in jail?: .

I cannot find the address Melton Road, South Tottenham either as a current street address or a historic address now renamed.

 

I dont know how I would find out whether he lied to the RAMC or not, I do have to say though that most of his personal items from the war including photos are believed to have been from his time with the RAMC, im guessing he knew the war was over when he transfered and wanted keepsakes, I can add them to this thread if required, I just want to know now what the 93rd were up to when he was with them and also what he did with the west kents in north africa as I have ordered their war diary's from the respected time he was with them

 

Oh yes, I'm aware - I have war diaries and a photographed copy of their regimental history, which I can share if you are interested.

 

Sorry that I didn't see all the references which would point to him being transferred to the 6th.

I am looking at their regimental history and don't see any indication of the use of infantry ranks but who knows? I'm not reading every word.

Mostly in 1944, the 93rd were in Italy doing very good anti-tank work, and becoming strong proponents of the use of the M10 (American "tank destroyer"). ".. .with the M10s, which we knew well, and the M10C, which we were getting for the first time, we had really good weapons which proved invaluable in harrying the Bosche." - p97 of the regimental history.

(The M10C was the version with the 17-pounder gun)

But they had towed gun batteries as well.

 

I would be very intrested thank you!

 

He transferred into the Royal Army Service Corps (RASC) as a driver and not the Royal Army Medical Corps (RAMC). He seems to have served in 34 Company RASC and then in the TA in the RASC. Why do you think he served in the RAMC?

Why escape from the A&SH? I don't know but here are some possible reasons
1. There weren't many tanks for 92 Anti tank to knock out, particularly in the towed batteries.
2. If he had stayed in the infantry he could have been sent somewhere much more dangerous "Burma Looms Ahead"
3. He may not have had much choice. He had a poor disciplinary record and when the unit he was in was asked for nominations for drivers to transfer to the RASC his name may have been high in the list the BSM or RSM kept of people the unit could do without. They all have a list of soldiers that they would like to put forward to serve somewhere else.

His run-ins with the authorities may not have been wholly his fault. The punishments seem rather harsh for his military misdemeanours. Eight days close confinement (jail) for a period of absence less than 24 hours suggests a failed excuse. I do not know the circumstances of his refusal to take part in a raid during the battle of El Alamein, but it sounds a little odd. The charge "conduct unbecoming is short for section 40 of the Army Act "Conduct to prejudice of military discipline." Its a catch all.

But the offence seems to fit a different section of the Army act.

Disobedience 9 .- ( ) Every person subject to military law who commits to superior the following offence ; that is to say, Disobeys in sùch manner as to show a wilful defiance of authority any lawful commands given personally by his superior officer in the execution of his office, whether the same is given orally, or in writing, or by signal, or otherwise, shall, on conviction by court-martial, be liable to suffer penal servitude or such less punishment as is in this Act mentioned ; and 2) Every person subject to military law who commits the following offence ; that is to say , Disobeysl any lawful command? given by his superior officer, shall, on conviction by court-martial, if he commits such offence on active service, be liable to suffer penal servitude or such less punishment as is in this Act mentioned;...

So why did they charge him under section 40 rather than section 9?: Was he just heard grumbling or did he refuse a direct order?

in his memoir from the Burma campaign George Macdonald Fraser described instances where members of his section say they were not going to do some military duty. Grumbling about orders is normal - as is turning a deaf ear to technical infractions of the Army Act.

 

I know that the 4th battalion at el alamien had quite a few people refusing to go on raids as heard from oral history with the IWM, this is probably due to previous action, I think monty felt that the 132nd brigade didnt have enough combat experience as majority of them were new troops in to north africa, going through hell even before alam el halfa etc

 

Ps, I have misspelled RASC as RAMS, my bad

 

Would my great grandfather have been on those tank destroyers in some capacity?

 

Seems hard to say, to me. I think drivers of tank destroyers may have had to qualify as a driver/mechanic but I'm not sure. There were plenty of wheeled vehicles that needed moving, even if they had some self-propelled guns (tank destroyers).

 

Looking at his record, it is clear he was not transferred to 93rd Anti-Tank Regiment or any other A&SH battalion in December 1944, but to 6th Battalion, IRTD and the X List. This is the 6th Battalion IRTD, not the 6th Battalion A&SH, which would not have been officially referenced as such anyway. He is transferred as a Gunner, but when he is transferred to the RASC, he is a Private.

This is in keeping with standard practice with transferees from the Royal Artillery to the infantry, with IRTD providing them with infantry training. He never makes it to an infantry battalion from the X List, but is transferred to the RASC.

Looking at the LAA Regiment war diaries for this period, the vast majority of other ranks were transferred to IRTD, with fewer going to RATD and RACTD if they had specialist skills. Even fewer were transferred directly to other divisional units, mainly RE and Royal Sigs, where there was an urgent requirement for their specialist skills.

 

If he wasnt transferred to the A&S why is it mentioned in his record? I am a bit confused to be honest

 

He was transferred to the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders from the Royal Artillery as an infantryman. That doesn't mean he went directly to a battalion. If he had been, it would have been noted. Instead, he was sent to IRTD for infantry training but was subsequently transferred to the RASC, specifically RASCTD.