8th Bn, Royal Warwickshire Regiment - Dunkirk veteran's lost grave.

I've just found this website while researching my family ancestry. I didn't know what thread to post this on so I thought it best to started a new one.

I was wondering if any one knows what could have happened to my uncle, private Harold Leslie WEBB, 5111390, 8th Bn, Royal Warwickshire Regiment.
He died of his wounds between the 19th and 21st May 1940 defending the retreat of the B.E.F. at Dunkirk.
Apparently he’s mentioned on the Dunkirk Memorial (column 41) at Dunkirk Cemetery but there isn’t a grave for him, why?
If he died of his wounds then he was probably hospitalized but there is no record of a grave.
Also killed was his brother-in-law, private Frank TRANTER, 5111380, 8th Bn, Royal Warwickshire Regiment. Who died on the 21st May 1940 and has a grave at the CALONNE Communal Cemetery.
According to the Royal Warwickshire Regiment Museum they were probably in the same engagement attempting to hold the line of the Scheldt.
They both signed-up, as brothers in arms, on the same day 8th May 1939 before war was declared.
See attached photos, Harold WEBB is second from the left in the group photo. I don't know who the others are. The photo of Frank Tranter was taken on his wedding day.
Phil

 

Hi Phil and welcome to the forum,

Sadly he will be remembered on the Dunkirk Memorial because he has no known grave which could be for a variety of reasons.

Regards
Andy

I deleted your other post in the Dunkirk Story thread as it will avoid confusion with the same subject running in various locations.

 

Phil
Welcome to the forum

 

Phil,

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Franks details show his service number ending with an 8.

NoSurnameRankService NumberDate Of DeathAgeRegiment/ServiceNationalityGrave/Memorial Ref.Cemetery/Memorial Name1 TRANTER , FRANK Private511138821/05/1940 23Royal Warwickshire RegimentUnited KingdomRow C. Grave 14.CALONNE COMMUNAL CEMETERY

CWGC :: Casualty Results

Name:WEBB, HAROLD LESLIEInitials:H LNationality:United KingdomRank:PrivateRegiment/Service:Royal Warwickshire RegimentUnit Text:8th Bn.Age:20Date of Death:between 19/05/1940 and 21/05/1940Service No:5111390Additional information:Nephew and ward of Harriet Simmonds, of Winson Green, Birmingham.Casualty Type:Commonwealth War DeadGrave/Memorial Reference:Column 41.Memorial:DUNKIRK MEMORIAL

CWGC :: Casualty Details

Hopefully you will get some answers to your question.
If you can get a look at the regimental war diaries it may enlighten you when you look at the days in question.

Regards
Tom

 

Welcome, Phil.

Probably not much help in your search but Hugh Sebag-Montefiore (in "Dunkirk, Fight to the Last Man") says of the 8th Royal Warwicks at the Escaut on 21 May: the battalion (mostly territorials) "should not even have been on the front line on 21 May. They held the Calonne-Antoing sector, just south of the 2nd Royal Norfolks and they were to have been relieved the night before having withstood the German barrage for much of 20 May.

The relief force failed to arrive. Finding that the enemy had broken through on the battalion's right flank the CO, Lt-Col Reginald Baker, gathered a scratch force of 40 to 50 battalion HQ personnel and personally led a bayonet assault against prepared German positions; this force was practically wiped out. The rest of the battalion had also suffered badly - when they withdrew from the Escaut on the night of 22/23 May they numbered just 366 men.

 

Welcome to the forum Phil.

From the CWGC:

"During the withdrawal of the British Expeditionary Force to Dunkirk in May 1940, there was heavy fighting in the area around Calonne-sur-la-Lys, and most of the inhabitants left the area. The school was used by the Germans as an aid post, and British soldiers who died at Calonne, either in battle or of wounds while prisoners, were buried by the Germans in the field behind the school. In 1942 the local people moved these graves into the communal cemetery, but in the meantime the rough grave markers had in many instances become illegible. The identity discs and personal possessions had mostly been removed before burial, so that in 1942 few of the dead could be identified. The communal cemetery now contains 23 Commonwealth burials of the Second World War, 14 of which are unidentified."

If as you think they died in the same engagement, then it could be that your uncle Harold is buried in one of the unidentified graves at Calonne!

Best,

Steve.

 

Thanks to all who have posted replies, so far.

I have copies of the war diaries dated from 18th May 1940 to 21st May for the 8th Btn Royal Warwickshires.
They show the hell they must have endured but they don't tell me what happened to my uncle.

When I've scanned them I will attach them to this post so watch this space.

 

Phil, I can understand a little your confusion, but May 1940 was not the best time for accurate record keeping and in many instances, men were left where they fell, so that the survivors would stand a chance to get home.
No one wass intentionally left unburied, the Germans and/or French would have ensured they were given a proper burial and where possible, recorded. That's probably why the ID tags etc were initially taken. Somewhere along the line during the next 4 or more years, these records were either lost or more likely filed away in some dark basement somewhere and never found, possibly buried during Allied bombing attacks.
The fact that these men are in the French Communal cemetery and not a separate CWGC cemetery is some proof that these mens' sacrifice was appreciated by the local community and no doubt are still smartly kept to this day.
The CWGC information and explanation by SteveMac is as good as you could hope for.
I don't see where you have the information that he died of wounds. If he died a couple of days before his brother in law, then it's more likely he was buried by his chums, but in the haste, the details were lost.
During those 3 days, the 8th Bn lost 82 men, but only 8 are on the Dunkirk Memorial, so it is very probable that he may be one of the "Known Unto God"s in that cemetery.

 

He may be in this file at Kew:

British Expeditionary Force, France: 8th battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment; missing men

 

Having just seen the War Diary report stating that a number of vehicles were bombed and casualties sustained, it does seem more likely that he was one of those, after being hit by a bomb it would be difficult to identify who was who, all they'd know was who was missing...
Incidentally, that post of 3 pages in the Diary now seems to have gone??????

 

Welcome to the forum


Cheers
Paul

 

Thanks again to all replies and to the welcome messages.

Owen, thanks, for posting the war diaries, which include the pages I already had, so there is no need for me to do the same, as I said I would.
Also, thanks for the other thread; I will contact Stephen as suggested.

KevinW4, to answer your question “…where you have the information that he died of wounds.”
When I visited the Regimental Museum in Warwick, I was shown the actual enlistment book that has the entries for all the young men who joined-up. For each name the last column entitled “Transfers to other Corps. or cause of becoming non-effective…” states for Harold Webb “Died of wounds between 19-5-40 and 21-5-40” and for Frank Tranter it states “Died on the Western Front 21-5-40”.

To all, if you go to the Calonne Cemetery website, (link below), you can now see the photos of both fallen soldiers and photos of their memorials, thanks to Pierre Vandervelden.

http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/dunkirkmemorial.htm

Thanks, Phil

 

Hi Owen
I've just read all the War Diary pages you posted and yes there's one page missing so I've attached the missiing page with a map of the area for the time between 19th to 22nd May.
Phil

 

Thanks, Phil for info on him dying of wounds which ties in with the CWGC dates... Obviously, the Battalion was still able to keep records of who had been wounded and subsequently died, maybe if that Report could be located it would give a better idea of location?

 

Hi Phil

I started a thread on the action at Calonne last year in connection with a relative who was killed in the same action on the 21st may 1940 while serving with the 8th Royal Warwicks, Private John Inskeep, service No 5109548.

I visited Calonne last year and the well kept CWGC plot is in the middle of the civilian cemetery, I think there are about 72/73 graves a good proportion of them are Royal Warwicks, John's grave was at the start/end of one of the first couple of rows. The cemetery is just the other side of the road and standing at the gate and looking back you have a good view of the ship canal. I checked the area out using Google Earth and it gave a good overall view of the ground they were fighting over.

Interesting to see the group photograph you posted, as we do not have a photograph of John it makes me wonder "is he one of them?" I have copies of the war diary kindly supplied by Croonheart via Owen, do you copies have have a page missing as well?

regards
Steve

 

Phil

I should have read the post before posting, I see you have posted the missing pages!

Steve